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Wezil is offline Wezil
King
Ontario, Canada
Nov 1999
time: 02:03
  Old Post 06-04-2005 00:46
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The west needs a cartel to match OPEC. What do we sell them that they need?

Dis is offline Dis
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time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wezil
The west needs a cartel to match OPEC. What do we sell them that they need?


nothing

But Asia could do it with cell phones

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wezil
The west needs a cartel to match OPEC. What do we sell them that they need?


Arab countries basically import every thing other then oil. The dictators which run those countries figured out that rich people objected to some of their policies to they went out and eliminated most of the rich people. They want poor people who are dependent upon the government and they play with nationalism in order to justify nationalizing the businesses of their enemies.

Great if your the dictator but horrible if your anyone else especially if you want economic growth.

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wezil
The west needs a cartel to match OPEC. What do we sell them that they need?


How about food? That might be imporant enough.

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 01:54 Visit Asher's homepage!
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How about porn?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 01:54
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The OPEC cartel has lost much of its power. Certainly nowhere near as strong as it used to be.

Last edited by Dauphin on 06-04-2005 at 02:01

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 01:55 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


Arab countries basically import every thing other then oil. The dictators which run those countries figured out that rich people objected to some of their policies to they went out and eliminated most of the rich people. They want poor people who are dependent upon the government and they play with nationalism in order to justify nationalizing the businesses of their enemies.

Great if your the dictator but horrible if your anyone else especially if you want economic growth.


Actually the poor people object quite a bit.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 01:58 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Most oil watchers laughed at Goldman-Sacks for that prediction. Everyone seems to agree that unless a major producing country is virtually shut down the prices won't spike that high. Instead they're likely to stay in the $50-$60 range.


Sources?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
All of this adds up to there not being a shortage but that OPEC continues to hold back supplies in order to keep prices high. Much of the current price is also based upon fears of disruption in Iraq and/or outright speculation. Don't expect prices to go much higher in the short term unless there is some sort of supply break down.


What DanS and Dissident said.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 02:03
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$90 in todays dollars would match the prices seen during the Arab Oil embargo during the 70s. $105 is not that out of line. Besides, production growth has not been able to match the demand growth of China and India. If this continues, prices can only go up.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 02:27
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FROM THE ECONOMIST

Attachment: cga653.gif
This has been downloaded 71 time(s).

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 02:29
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quote:
OPEC has responded by promising to open the taps. The oil cartel’s acting secretary-general, Adnan Shihab-Eldin, said on Monday that it was ready to produce another 500,000 barrels per day (bpd) if prices stay high. But according to experts, the market is so tight that this may be of little help. Oil prices, remember, barely paused for breath following OPEC’s last production hike, of 500,000 bpd, on March 16th.

Only six years ago, many, including The Economist, were predicting that oil would stay at a lowly $10 or so per barrel for the foreseeable future. Nonetheless, as the authors of the Goldman Sachs report point out, the laws of supply and demand are catching up with an oil-hungry world. There is barely any excess capacity in the oil industry, which makes it hard for the market to meet new demand. Russia, the producer to whom markets have been looking for salvation, has seen its rapid production growth level off in recent months, and the other non-OPEC nations are thought to be producing about as much as they can. Meanwhile, even OPEC has little margin to spare: by one estimate, the cartel can pump only another 1.5m bpd—a small fraction of its members’ current quotas of 27.5m bpd—before it smacks up against its production ceiling. With the International Energy Agency (IEA) forecasting oil demand to grow by 1.81m bpd in 2005, supply and demand would seem to be heading for a showdown.

The analysts at Goldman Sachs think the only thing that can restore equilibrium in the market is a sustained period of high prices that forces a cutback in consumption. This would give producers time to build more capacity, which could sate demand and cushion supply shocks, such as the Iraq war. Part of the reason that prices are so high is that today’s tight margins mean that a natural disaster or political unrest can leave the world without enough oil to go round. With big producers like Nigeria, Venezuela and Iraq looking unstable, people selling contracts to deliver oil in the future are demanding a hefty premium to cover the risk that the contract may mature in the middle of a shortage.

So far, however, that premium does not seem to be translating into lower consumer demand. When oil spiked in the 1970s and early 1980s, consumers responded by using a lot less of it. This time, however, they seem blithely unconcerned. Economies have become a lot more fuel-efficient over the past 20 years; as a result, spending on petroleum products is a smaller percentage of income. Governments have also begun taxing fuel more heavily, so that the price of crude makes up a much smaller fraction of the price consumers pay at the pump. And in Asia, where a lot of the demand growth is coming from, fuel prices are generally controlled by the state, so consumers aren’t feeling the pinch as much as they should. In 2004, international energy prices went up by 40%, but in oil-guzzling China they rose by only half that.

For all of these reasons, the Goldman analysts reckon that prices need to go—and stay—higher still before demand begins to weaken. In real (inflation-adjusted) terms, oil reached its all-time high in 1980, of around $90 a barrel (see chart). Back then, OPEC saw revenues plummet as consumers cut back sharply. This time around, Goldman thinks that it might take prices of more than $100 per barrel to make consumers retrench.

Demand-side economics

These sorts of price levels are a big problem for oil-importing nations, particularly if they are sustained. Long bouts with high energy prices bring on stagflation, the combination of high inflation and low growth that erodes incomes and undercuts economic stability. With that in mind, the IEA has issued a draft report on how countries can build emergency programmes to deal with high oil prices.

Some of the report’s ideas are worn-out. It proposes a rapid expansion of car-pool lanes, for instance, despite these having failed to get people sharing vehicles in America. However, in an interview with the Financial Times, Claude Mandil, the IEA’s executive director, suggested something that could make a difference: ending fuel subsidies. Asia is forecast to generate 40% of the global increase in oil demand in 2005; letting the market's price signals get through to consumers would help demand align with supply before a crisis develops.

Over the longer term, global capacity will need to expand. High prices should eventually attract companies looking for new oilfields to exploit. As oil majors such as Shell have been forced to restate downwards their estimated reserves of unpumped oil, the pressure to find new fields has grown further. This week, ChevronTexaco announced that it was buying Unocal for $16.4 billion, a move heralded largely for beefing up the American oil giant’s exploration and development business.

But new capacity takes years to come onstream; in the meantime, the woes of the world’s oil consumers seem likely to grow. Surging oil prices could stall the fragile recoveries of many industrial nations, particularly Japan, which is a heavy oil importer. Europe is somewhat more insulated by its high fuel taxes, and by the euro: since oil is priced in dollars, the dollar’s depreciation against the euro has mitigated the damage. But with German and French economic growth still weak, rising fuel prices might yet be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

Perhaps the biggest worry of all is America, which is highly exposed to the price of oil, because of its low taxes, and because oil is priced in its currency. America has led the way out of the global slowdown. If oil prices hit hard, might it lead the way back into the next one?


from the web

www.economist.com

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kontiki


How about food? That might be imporant enough.


The world has more food then it knows what to do with and production is so easily moved around that it is impossible to corner the market. You need a scarous resource which you can monopolize.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:33
  Old Post 06-04-2005 03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wezil
The west needs a cartel to match OPEC. What do we sell them that they need?


Money?

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 06-04-2005 04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


The world has more food then it knows what to do with and production is so easily moved around that it is impossible to corner the market. You need a scarous resource which you can monopolize.


The western world has more food than it knows what to do with. I doubt the OPEC countries could come even close to replicated the supplies. Think about how much surplus food would be floating around if the major oil consuming nations decided not to export any.

Of course, this whole thing is moot. It's not like the west is actually going to corner the market on anything and dangle it like a carrot in front of OPEC. Except maybe weapons.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 04:21 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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OPEC really doesn't have much control over the price of oil anymore. The producers are all making individual decisions to stockpile oil because they expect the price to increase. Greenspan said today that eventually the price would come down after they stop stockpiling so we will have to see.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 06:08
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? the only reason they are stockpiling is to hedge - they believe prices will go even higher, expectations drive prices up quicker then usualy

TCO is offline TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 06-04-2005 06:58
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If they have spare capacity then by definition, they set the current price. Sheesh, ya morons.

VJ is offline VJ
Prince
Helsinki
Dec 2001
time: 07:33
  Old Post 06-04-2005 12:51
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Whoever Goldman is, he's going to look real stupid when prices fall back to around 30$... FFS, for 60$ current money it becomes feasible to take sand in Canada and refine it to oil. The only way how oil could end up permanently costing 105US$/barrel is inflation.

quote:
$90 in todays dollars would match the prices seen during the Arab Oil embargo during the 70s.

Only for a brief period in 1979-1980, and even then it was way overpriced mainly because media tried to hype "OMGWERERUNNINGOUTOFOILJUSTNOW" to make the prez's job harder... in US, media got a kick out of sabotaging the president's job any way they could after Nixon. Panic and stockpiling had a significant effect on demand.

alva is offline alva
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Republic of Flanders
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wezil
The west needs a cartel to match OPEC. What do we sell them that they need?


Dictatorship.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 06-04-2005 20:14 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
Whoever Goldman is


Nobody you need to be concerned about.

Last edited by DanS on 06-04-2005 at 20:20

Brundlefly is offline Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 21:00
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General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 21:03
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If he actually said that, I'd like him better.

Brundlefly is offline Brundlefly
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 21:04
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Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 21:05 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by TCO
If they have spare capacity then by definition, they set the current price. Sheesh, ya morons.


Running at full capacity costs a lot.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
? the only reason they are stockpiling is to hedge - they believe prices will go even higher, expectations drive prices up quicker then usualy


Exactly. The point is that they make individual decisions to do so.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by VJ
Whoever Goldman is, he's going to look real stupid when prices fall back to around 30$... FFS, for 60$ current money it becomes feasible to take sand in Canada and refine it to oil. The only way how oil could end up permanently costing 105US$/barrel is inflation.


The prediction is for a year of two out.

pchang is offline pchang
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  Old Post 06-04-2005 22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Running at full capacity costs a lot.


But less than they would get from selling the extra oil

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang


But less than they would get from selling the extra oil


That's an assumption. TCO moronically defned pricing power incorrectly.

 
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