06-04-2005 13:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa What if he in turn needed the extra money for a medicine for his ill wife that some other doctor is holding tight for a lot more money?

That's why hypothetical situations are silly

	06-04-2005 16:34									#32
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Well, but important in ethic discussions, don't you think?

	07-04-2005 07:03									#33
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The thing is, you can keep adding to these hypothetical questions until you end with a Gordian Knot.

	07-04-2005 07:26									#34
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And thats when you get a sword.

	07-04-2005 08:50									#35
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The real world time period you're talking about is blindingly obvious.

Yes, use it. The suffering has already happened and to eliminate any good results out of it would be awful. Victim compensation, yes, sure. But at least those victims already passed were not for a lost cause.

The US would have been well delayed in reaching the moon without Nazi research, plenty of it done on slaves and concentration camp inmates. But you can just look at the future, and say, what can I do at this point in time to turn things for the rightest?

And Wernher von Braun was an *******.

	07-04-2005 08:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell And Wernher von Braun was an *******.

No more so than most other war weapons designers, I suppose.

	07-04-2005 09:01									#37
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Most war weapons designers stay in their own country and try to only kill combatants.

Production of the V2 killed more slave laborers than Londoners.

	07-04-2005 09:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Most war weapons designers stay in their own country and try to only kill combatants.

Something over which von Braun had no control. The U.S. snatched him up without a second thought and whisked him to the U.S. And the Nazis were the ones using the rockets to kill people. Might as well blame Northrup-Grumman scientists for civilians killed in Iraq.

"Ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey come down? Zat's not my department" says Werner von Braun...

quote: Production of the V2 killed more slave laborers than Londoners.

Again, something over which von Braun had no control. He and Dornberger tried to resist Himmler's attempts to take over V-2 production, so Himmler had him arrested for trying to "sabotage" the program. He was released, but the point was well-made by Himmler.

Von Braun plausibly had no direct knowledge of the extreme conditions that existed for the slave workers at the production sites. He rarely visited places like Mittelwerk, and when he did it was just for short periods--as far as he knew it was just prisoners being utilized for labor, which we even do here in the U.S. It wasn't until late 1944 that he learned about the atrocious treatment and casualties, and there still wasn't anything he could do about it, being as far removed from production as he was.

Note that I'm not excusing anything, but I don't think he quite qualifies as a monstrous Nazi slavedriver murderer. His chief interest lay in space exploration (Himmler used remarks he had made about using the V-2 for such purposes after the war as part of the SS reason for arresting him, oddly enough).

	07-04-2005 20:47									#39
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell The real world time period you're talking about is blindingly obvious.

Well, yes...

Anyway I am surprised that nobody suggested to burn the work done by a force with evil intentions and reached with evil methods.
Is it entirely unimportant _how_ something was created?

Because then I might go out as scientist and use lots of unethetical methods, victimize myself in order to serve a greater purpose: the development of humanity.
In the end I can be sure that my work will be used and I have done right. I can choose a wrong path and still do the right thing. All the victims that died for it, will be shrugged off as collateral damage.

Interesting point of view, no?

	07-04-2005 20:59									#40
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USE.

Duh. what's the dilemma?

	07-04-2005 21:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Why should it belong to the victims? Without your rescue they'd all be dead by now! .

ergo you have the right to take anything they own, even things the Nazis didnt manage to steal. Er, no. Rescue may give you a right to gratitude, or compensation, but not total rights over the rescued.

In any case, in WW2, the allies made war on Germany principally for their own reasons, not to rescue holocaust victims. And they had abundant alternate sources of compensation for their efforts.

	07-04-2005 21:20									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "Ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey come down? Zat's not my department" says Werner von Braun...

So he's an amoral *******, not an immoral *******?

	07-04-2005 21:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ergo you have the right to take anything they own

Why do you think they should own it though?

	07-04-2005 21:38									#44
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Is this a joke? The experiments were evil and its damn good the purpetraitors are dead, but why let those peoples suffering come to nothing?

CURE AIDS AND CANCER!

USE!


Most of my familly died in the concentration camps.

	07-04-2005 22:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ergo you have the right to take anything they own, even things the Nazis didnt manage to steal. Er, no. Rescue may give you a right to gratitude, or compensation, but not total rights over the rescued. In any case, in WW2, the allies made war on Germany principally for their own reasons, not to rescue holocaust victims. And they had abundant alternate sources of compensation for their efforts.

No you confusing ownership! The result of the experiment was owned by the nazis (how they acquired it shall not matter _for now_).
Then they are all dead and were destroyed by the allied. Logically all their posessions now fall over to the allied (still you _do not care_ how it was acquired), because they are in control now and since in that example _you_ are the allied, YOU can decide on what to do with it. If you want to give it back, well then you can do so. If you want to keep it, well you can as well. NOW is the time to decide as you have the power because you are in charge.
I am just asking what is the most ethical thing to do.

And I am also asking if you would give the results of the work to the victims EVEN if they'd use it for evil purposes or burn it altogether (okay this case is useless since you could burn it for yourself then, it's just there to remind you that you are ignoring the victims requests).

Okay I should have included also the scenario if the victims would do good with it, if they'd be given it. It did not made so much sense when I first thought about it, but seeing how everyone responded it would have been interesting.

	08-04-2005 00:17									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So he's an amoral *******, not an immoral *******?

As amoral as any weapons designer, I suppose. But as I said, his chief interest was space, not war.

	08-04-2005 09:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Anyway I am surprised that nobody suggested to burn the work done by a force with evil intentions and reached with evil methods. Is it entirely unimportant _how_ something was created?

I wasn't saying ends justisfy means. That's not the case here, though. It's the bad guys who did all this, and what was done was done. Destroying the results help nobody.

The only compensation for those who died in the process is the results get used to help this world.

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Because then I might go out as scientist and use lots of unethetical methods, victimize myself in order to serve a greater purpose: the development of humanity.

How would you victimise yourself if you use "evil methods?"

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa In the end I can be sure that my work will be used and I have done right. I can choose a wrong path and still do the right thing. All the victims that died for it, will be shrugged off as collateral damage. Interesting point of view, no?

As I said, hypothetical situations are silly.

	08-04-2005 12:58									#48
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quote: How would you victimise yourself if you use "evil methods?"

The way of my thinking would be: I creat this medicine that in the process of creation kills 1000 people but then heals millions. Because I killed the people, I will get arrested and maybe killed. That's my sacrifice.

You basically identify with the rest of the people you kill for getting the information. You see yourself as victim, because in the end you'll get burned and only your work will be allowed to live on.

	08-04-2005 14:33									#49
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Yes, but you forget that the state would of pulled that medicine off the market long before it killed the necessary 1000. So you'd be dead and so would so many people that died before it got pulled, and your name will live on in eternity as the guy who invented it, nevermind about the eventual good side effects.

	08-04-2005 14:48									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa The way of my thinking would be: I creat this medicine that in the process of creation kills 1000 people but then heals millions. Because I killed the people, I will get arrested and maybe killed. That's my sacrifice.

The Nazis and the Japanese conducted medical experiments on humans because they were inherently evil. If you are evil though why would you care? If you aren't evil you won't conduct such experiments.

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa You basically identify with the rest of the people you kill for getting the information. You see yourself as victim, because in the end you'll get burned and only your work will be allowed to live on.

Doing something like this require a lot of resources, such as loads of goons/henchmen/lackeys, seret bases, etc. You need to send the goons out to kidnap people (probably homeless folk and the like) and move them to your bases.

If you have the required resouces, you probably won't need to use "evil methods."

	08-04-2005 14:51									#51
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well okay hypothetical situations are silly