17-04-2005 08:31									#31
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I am trying to point out that Europe is a socialist economy which discourages private buisness, which may account for the 5% diff in the US employment rate.

	17-04-2005 08:46									#32
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And so I ask again: And the US isn't a socialist economy?

	17-04-2005 08:53									#33
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It never ceases to amaze me just what can be called socialist with a straight face nowadays...

	17-04-2005 09:14									#34
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quote: And the US isn't a socialist economy?

And I again I tell you...

what's your point?

You think dellusions keep ppl from trying or not trying?

	17-04-2005 09:19									#35
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You mean socialist as in all forms of private enterprise forbidden and collectivized agriculture, with all all means of industrial production owned by the state, like in NK? The US didn't look very socialist to me. All these farmers and enterpreneurs running around with the delusion they 'own' their enterprises. I guess it's all one big deception?

Or is this about what some call 'social democracy'?

	17-04-2005 09:19									#36
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I would like to know why you think socialism has anything to do with it. Sweden has a better unemployment rate than the US, after all.

	17-04-2005 09:52									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I agree that monetary policy is too tight, especially in Germany. You don't think that loose monetary policy in Europe could work like it works in the US though do you?

Many here do (it works in the UK as well, which is in the EU. Can't get more obvious than that). But try to explain it to our genius central bankers

BTW, the monetary policy is the same for all countries of the Eurozone. It's decided by the ECB alone, so there's no variation among countries.

	17-04-2005 10:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would guess that Europe has a similar %-age of population under arms versus the US.

Not quite, IIRC, but the U.S. counts people in the military as being part of the workfoirce and as being employed. Other countries do not, so it would tend to lower our UR vis a vi them.

	17-04-2005 10:38									#39
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The statistical methods that the Europeans use to calculate unemployment rates are radically different than the ones that Americans use, probably the "real" rate in Europe is still somewhat higher but using official statistics is comparing bananas and plantains...

	17-04-2005 15:44									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Sure, only 0.24% or 60000 persons of the active population is incarcerated in France (instead of 2% or 2.500.000 in the US), therefore the unemployment rate would decrease by 1.74%. Unfortunately, this would require 440000 more criminals, a quantity that cannot be presently produced nor delivered by the criminal industry.

	17-04-2005 16:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I am trying to point out that Europe is a socialist economy which discourages private buisness, which may account for the 5% diff in the US employment rate.

'Europe' isn't socialist. I mean, it just isn't.

	17-04-2005 18:36									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman 'Europe' isn't socialist. I mean, it just isn't.

Correct, but it far more so than the US....

Maybe my troll wasn't so much of a troll...

	17-04-2005 18:45									#43
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To paraphrase Tyler Durton:

Just because Europe has stuck more feathers up its butt, doesn't make it more of a chicken than the US...

	17-04-2005 18:49									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would like to know why you think socialism has anything to do with it. Sweden has a better unemployment rate than the US, after all.

I think it has to do with the idea that only unfettered capitalism can be a good climate for businesses, and that only such private businesses (which pay little taxes and do whatever they want) create jobs.

	17-04-2005 18:57									#45
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This reminds me more and more how far the UK is from the EU economically. We have 2.7% unemployment (claimant) or 4.8% (ILO), and have been quite buoyant while Germany and France have been facing problems, deficits and high uneployment.

I always wonder why? I know our business cycle is a bit different, but I think some of it has to be attributed to New Labour and Gordon Brown. After 8 years, with many world problems economically, the UK has done very well, and still is. Scarily, I think I may even end up voting Labour in a few weeks, even given my history as a staunch liberal.

	17-04-2005 19:27									#46
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I think, all countries are significantly making up their unemployment statistics, i.e. not counting those how get no unemployment payments anymore. I've frequently read that real unemployment in Germany is more like 20 %.

@Drogue
But only 20 years ago the UK's economic shape was far worse than say Germany's. That can obviously change pretty quick.

	17-04-2005 21:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I always wonder why? I know our business cycle is a bit different, but I think some of it has to be attributed to New Labour and Gordon Brown.

I think it has far, far more to do with the reforms that the tories enacted in the 1980s.
It was after those that our economies unerlying growth rate and structural unemployment began to improve.

quote: Originally posted by Drogue After 8 years, with many world problems economically, the UK has done very well, and still is.

That is mainly because Gordon Brown has overseen a very large deterioration in Britian's structural budget deficit - second only to the US's deterioration (and ours was structured in such a manner to provide much more short-term economic stimulus so we got 'more bang for our buck' as well)

	18-04-2005 00:38									#48
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quote: Originally posted by el freako I think it has far, far more to do with the reforms that the tories enacted in the 1980s. It was after those that our economies unerlying growth rate and structural unemployment began to improve.

True, those reforms were needed. However alone I don't think they would have worked. Without higher taxes and lower spending to reduce the deficit in 1997-2000 we wouldn't have had the "war chest" to be able to spend through the recession. Luck, probably, but prudent nonetheless, and it did help the country. With Tory lower tax and the same spending plans for the first 2 years, we wouldn't have been able to spend through the recession without a much larger national debt.

	18-04-2005 00:48									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Correct, but it far more so than the US.... Maybe my troll wasn't so much of a troll...

Because you need to identify specific policies not just label something as Socialist or Capitalist because all economies are mixed except for maybe Cuba and NK.

	18-04-2005 01:03									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Many here do (it works in the UK as well, which is in the EU. Can't get more obvious than that). But try to explain it to our genius central bankers BTW, the monetary policy is the same for all countries of the Eurozone. It's decided by the ECB alone, so there's no variation among countries.

The US exports it's inflation because it's the primary market where exporters dump their goods. This allows it to use monetary policy more effectively to stimulate growth. A lot of that growth is lost through the expanded trade deficit, but not all of it. Slowly it's having a negative effect, and it could end in big trouble, but it's the only nation who can use this strategy that way with the possible exeption of China now.

	18-04-2005 02:52									#51
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I'd like a concrete example of a structural reform.

	18-04-2005 03:12									#52
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decreasing unemployment benefits

	18-04-2005 03:15									#53
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Fiscal incentives for low-wage work.

Edit: add massive privatization to the mix too

	18-04-2005 03:15									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia decreasing unemployment benefits

You need to get people back into work. The unemployment benefit here is peanuts as it is but the cycle of people stuck on it for all perpetuity has to be broken...

	18-04-2005 03:28									#55
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thats exactly how you get them back to work. you decrease their incentives not to work. for example, like i said earlier, france has unemployment benefits for 2 years. thats just crazy. it also implies that you can live for two years on those benefits.

	18-04-2005 03:35									#56
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Only a moron would want to be unemployed.

	18-04-2005 03:45									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia thats exactly how you get them back to work. you decrease their incentives not to work. for example, like i said earlier, france has unemployment benefits for 2 years. thats just crazy. it also implies that you can live for two years on those benefits.

We have unemployment benefits until employment is found. Your opinion just shows how you have your head in the clouds. There are those actively seeking employment and just don't have any joy with it and these are the people who need help, not to be treated as another statistic and juggled with accordingly. I have been unemployed for 10 months of my life and I was certainly not there by choice, so don't be so damn insulting as to suggest that completely financially crippling me would have resolved the problem, because it wouldn't!

	18-04-2005 03:52									#58
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People have to provide proof that they are looking for work to get unemployment benefits. There are a few idiots who walk around in their sweats getting employers to sign their forms, but they're so stupid that they shouldn't have jobs anyway.

	18-04-2005 06:07									#59
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quote: Only a moron would want to be unemployed.

nah, smart people too. unemployed people look at their paychecks, then look at prospective salaries. then they decide whether going to work is worth the extra whatever they get, or if they should stay unemployed looking for a higher paying job. the result is that they never get employed since they arnt willing to take a lower paying job then they had before.

quote: We have unemployment benefits until employment is found. Your opinion just shows how you have your head in the clouds. There are those actively seeking employment and just don't have any joy with it and these are the people who need help, not to be treated as another statistic and juggled with accordingly. I have been unemployed for 10 months of my life and I was certainly not there by choice, so don't be so damn insulting as to suggest that completely financially crippling me would have resolved the problem, because it wouldn't!

it sure would, you would be forced to take a lower paying job then you normally would want. this gets unemployment down, production up, and kick starts the economy.

quote: People have to provide proof that they are looking for work to get unemployment benefits. There are a few idiots who walk around in their sweats getting employers to sign their forms, but they're so stupid that they shouldn't have jobs anyway.

where did you get this from?

	18-04-2005 06:49									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia where did you get this from?

It's standard practice here in the UK (and also in some other european countries I think)

In order to get the benefit you have to provide documentary proof that you are seaching for a job.

Do you mean to tell me that in the US you can claim unemployment benefit without actually searching for a job?