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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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I see where the bone of contention is:
For Asher, theft can be defined as deprivating somebody of his property without compensation.
For Ming, theft is defined as using somebody's work without paying.
In the case of tangible goods, both definitions apply: when you steal a pair of shoes at the shop, you're not paying for it, and the shop loses money. However, information isn't a tangible good: it's now nearly free to reproduce, and thus, when you acquire an individual copy of it without paying, you didn't cause any direct loss to the producer of the original. And if you had honestly no intention of ever buying it, you didn't cause a cost of opportunity either.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
using "honestly" to justify theft...
If you have no intention of buying it... why watch it then... Why should you get something (entertainment) when the owner gets nothing in return. Oh that's right... it's ok, but you weren't going to buy it anyway... you just stole instead... |
I'm not talking about morals here, I'm talking about definitions.
The yord "honestly" is not about theft, it's about the reality of never intending to make an effort into acquiring something. Here's an example for clarification.
Say, you are completely uninterested in French food, and you'd never bother look up a French recipe book, or go to a French restaurant. Yet, during a dinner at a friend's, you are served French dishes. They are acceptably enjoyable, but they don't change your mind, and you'll continue making no effort whatsoever in order to eating French food in the future.
I think it is typically a case where you had honestly no intent of ever buying (or bothering to get) French food, but yet you got it as the opportunity showed. You didn't hate it, and you didn't like it enough to change your mind.
Do you think such a situation is humanly impossible?
Please do not reply: "This has nothing to do with the thread, because I got the French food through legit means". Again, the word "honest" was not about the theft, it was about the intention of never spending a dime on something, whether available for free (through opportunity) or not.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:16
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I'll post this here, even though its related (obviously) more to music sharing than movies.:
I  Jeff Tweedy
quote:
NYTimes: Exploring the Right to Share, Mix and Burn
April 9, 2005
Exploring the Right to Share, Mix and Burn
By DAVID CARR
he tickets for the event Thursday sold out in five minutes on the Internet, and on the evening itself the lines stretched down the block. The reverent young fans might as well have been holding cellphones aloft as totems of their fealty.
Then again, this was the New York Public Library, a place of very high ceilings and even higher cultural aspirations, so the rock concert vibe created some dissonance. Inside, things became clearer as two high priests of very different tribes came together to address the question of "Who Owns Culture?" - a discussion of digital file-sharing sponsored by Wired magazine, part of a library series called "Live From the NYPL."
Both Jeff Tweedy, the leader of the fervently followed rock band Wilco, and Lawrence Lessig, a Stanford University law professor who has opposed criminalizing file sharing, seemed to agree that just about anybody who owns a modem also owns - or at least has every right to download - culture products.
"I don't think anybody should make any money on music," Mr. Tweedy said at one point, only half joking. "Maybe we would pay audiences."
It is a curious sight when a rock star appears before his flock and suggests they take his work without paying for it, and even encourages them to. Mr. Tweedy, who has never been much for rock convention, became a convert to Internet peer-to-peer sharing of music files in 2001, after his band was dropped from its label on the cusp of a tour. Initially, the news left Wilco at the sum end of the standard rock equation: no record/no tour, no tour/no money, no money/no band. But Mr. Tweedy released "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" for streaming on the band's Web site, and fans responded in droves. Wilco then took on the expenses of its tour as a band.
The resulting concerts were a huge success: Mr. Tweedy remembered watching in wonder as fans sang along with music that did not exist in CD form. Then something really funny happened. Nonesuch Records decided to release the actual plastic artifact in 2002. And where the band's previous album, "Summerteeth," sold 20,000 in its first week according to SoundScan, "Yankee" sold 57,000 copies in its first week and went on to sell more than 500,000. Downloading, at least for Wilco, created rather than diminished the appetite for the corporeal version of the work.
Both Mr. Tweedy and Mr. Lessig used their talk to say that the Web, in an age where conglomerated FM radio has squeezed out virtually all possibility of hearing anything worthy and new, is where fans are best exposed to music they might want to buy. And during the presentation (which was streamed live on Wilco's Web site), Mr. Lessig added that the decision to outlaw downloading would have a profoundly inhibiting effect on the creation of culture. He said that in every instance, from the player piano to radio to VCR's to cable, the law had landed on the side of the alleged "pirates," allowing for the copying or broadcasting of cultural works for private consumption. Thus far, both the music industry and the film industry has succeeded in making it illegal for consumers to download their products .
Mr. Lessig said that "the freedom to remix, not just words, but culture" was critical in the development of unforeseen works of art. He pointed to "The Grey Album," produced by the D.J. Danger Mouse, a remix of the Beatles' "White Album" and Jay-Z's "Black Album" that resulted in a wholly new and unexpected piece of music.
"What does it say about our democracy when ordinary behavior is deemed criminal?" he asked. Mr. Lessig and the moderator, Steven Johnson, a contributing editor at Wired, made much of the fact that the discussion was taking place in a library, where much of the Western cultural canon is available free.
Mr. Tweedy has little sympathy for artists who complain about downloading. "To me, the only people who are complaining are people who are so rich they never deserve to be paid again," he said.
Mr. Lessig, one of the philosopher kings of Internet law, and Mr. Tweedy, the crown prince of indie music, traded places more than a few times during the presentation, with Mr. Lessig, who has argued copyright cases before the United States Supreme Court, enthusiastic about the artistic possibilities the Web engenders, and Mr. Tweedy making sapient pronouncements on the theoretical underpinnings of ownership.
"Once you create something, it doesn't exist in the consciousness of the creator," Mr. Tweedy said, telling the audience that they had an investment in a song just by the act of listening. Later, at a dinner at Lever House, Mr. Tweedy suggested that downloading was an act of rightful "civil disobedience."
All of it - high and low culture, Supreme Court rulings and mashed-up video clips ridiculing the president - was eagerly lapped up by the audience, which included musicians like David Byrne and D.J. Spooky, along with a throng of fans who would show up to hear Mr. Tweedy read from a digital phone directory.
Afterward, Alex Sherwin, a 36-year-old graphic designer, said, "It would have been better with a guitar, but I still enjoyed hearing what he had to say." Mr. Sherwin said his favorite CD was a live Jeff Tweedy performance in Chicago, one that had been recorded and distributed with the artist's happy assent.
Posted: Sat - April 9, 2005 at 02:59 PM |
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:16
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If someone wants to be paid for their labor, then what justifies the use of their product without remuneration? Don't you want to be paid for your work?
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19-04-2005 05:52
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