27-04-2005 00:08									#31
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I'm not a fan of the SCC approach, for a number of reasons.

#1: Like Frankychan, putting all my research eggs in one basket is abhorrent to me.

#2: In order to get the most from your SCC earlier on, you'll be terraforming an energy farm, which is, imo, not a very efficient use of terraformer time. More bases will almost invariably suit your faction better, especially later in the game when cloning vats and nutrient satellites can rachet up your population very swiftly. Besides, energy farms can be a great defensive liability.

#3: Tech advances are truncated on a per-base basis. This means that if you need 35 labs to complete a tech this turn, and your SCC is about to contribute 1000, you'll lose the 965 leftover labs. There are tricks you can learn to figure out where in the base order your base will be, and act accordingly, but that detail in accounting makes my head itch. Better to make each base produce labs efficiently for the its size.

#4: Tech is the most ephemeral advantage in the game. Unit techs can be reverse-engingeered, and other techs can be probed away. Now a bad tech rate can be a hamstring, especially before probes, but IMO you're far better off keeping tech parity with your competition while focusing on minerals to outbuild them.

	27-04-2005 01:41									#32
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I don't like coastal placement of core bases so I prefer to terraform up to above 3000 m. That gives +5 energy with ME.

Silly Cat,

Tidal Harness +3 energy
Thermocline Transducer +1 energy
Merchant Exchange +1 energy
Free Market +1 energy

=6 energy

And all you have to teraform are the Harnesses. No raising the land or building E-mirrors. And once you get fusion, trawlers cost the same as crawlers.

	27-04-2005 02:07									#33
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I never go FM, don't build E-mirrors, don't crawl very much, and I prefer noncoastal core bases.

Might be a silly Cat, but rather that than a silly imp

	27-04-2005 11:23									#34
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quote: Tidal Harness +3 energy Thermocline Transducer +1 energy Merchant Exchange +1 energy Free Market +1 energy

This is the most easy combo to achieve.
ME is easy to grab, WP is not a hardball too (for fast terraform)
Only the FM could be a prob for some facs (like Hive), but they usually compensate in crawler count..

	28-04-2005 20:32									#35
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For a defensable SSC why not make it a sea city with a dike around it? You may not be able to get the ME into it this way, but you should be able to get the others if you have a causeway from the dike to the city and a transport in the city to get crawlers in to help with SP construction. The city would be vulnerable only to marines and air power, and removing the causeway after all the SPs are built would render it vulnerable only to air units.

	28-04-2005 21:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn For a defensable SSC why not make it a sea city with a dike around it? You may not be able to get the ME into it this way, but you should be able to get the others if you have a causeway from the dike to the city and a transport in the city to get crawlers in to help with SP construction. The city would be vulnerable only to marines and air power, and removing the causeway after all the SPs are built would render it vulnerable only to air units.

I don't terraform a **** but I will terraform a lot of land upward to create an energy park which has the effect of making it a longer route for amphibious assaults against me. If I am close to a pole, I might even join my island onto that pole and foreclose ships coming in that direction.

It all depends on ther map anyway. On many maps, I can find some chokepoints that if monitored give ample notice of potential attackers. In an ideal situation, you might send a trawler to monitor the spot. Even if it gets killed, it serves a purpose.

The easiest protection for a SSC in the early days is to be a land base and simply to crawl all of its nearby coastal tiles. Pre airpower and amphibious assault, your base cannot be attacked at all

	28-04-2005 23:54									#37
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do you guys not build coastal bases?

I feel naked without them. I have to have them. How else can I build a navy?

super science city is a no go in my current game. morgan is out-researching me and took all the science projects. . and they have hunter-seeker. so stealing tech is not an option.

	29-04-2005 01:44									#38
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On my map settings, most of the bases I found are coastal.

It's just that many of them will become uncoastal later.

	29-04-2005 02:50									#39
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Ultimately, the city with the supercollider and the theory of everything generally produces the most raw energy...but I don't crawl for it cause I don't use crawlers, and I don't exactly strive to improve it...so I don't use an SCC, more or less each base produces what it can...

	29-04-2005 03:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do you guys not build coastal bases? I feel naked without them. I have to have them. How else can I build a navy?

I do build coastal bases and my SSC is usually a coastal base since I like the ready energy from the sea. I just like terraforming a nearby land park that can serve as a bulwark against attack and limit the number of directions from which an attack may come

quote: Originally posted by Dissident super science city is a no go in my current game. morgan is out-researching me and took all the science projects. . and they have hunter-seeker. so stealing tech is not an option.

So go capture the HSA

	29-04-2005 03:28									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do you guys not build coastal bases? I feel naked without them. I have to have them. How else can I build a navy?

Surely, but they pretty fast becomes land bases. I Preserve one or two bases as coastal, but navy isn't that crucial after Air. Actually I have a couple of times experienced that my naval/coastal bases became land bases due to interior land raise

quote: super science city is a no go in my current game. morgan is out-researching me and took all the science projects. . and they have hunter-seeker. so stealing tech is not an option.

As Flubber says : get it Or maybe reconcider your beeline.

	29-04-2005 04:38									#42
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I have finished my game- transcend victory btw. But I never did get the tech lead.

Morgan with the expand preference did pretty good. He didn't start near any natural landmarks such as monsoon jungle. I still can't figure out how he out-researched me so much. I had the highest population through pop booms. Most of my cities were maxed out at the hab dome limits.

Just for the hell of it I planet bustered 3 of his cities- including the one with hunter seeker algorithm. though I didn't need it at that point because I could use the logarithmic enhancement- and I did to steal tech (that's what started the war). I didn't have enough range to planet buster his city with the telepathic matrix. I hate it when I can't get telepathic matrix. But it turns out I don't need it. Perhaps that SP is overrated.

In response he planet bustered 1 of my cities- the one with most of my SP's in it (cloning vats, human genome, empath guild). He didn't nuke any other cities. I was kind of pissed because I was using techniques I read about here (using units to block), but I think a couple of units disappeared due to rising waters (because of the morganites), and I didn't notice a break in my chain of units.

But it was a fun game, I guess there was still little chance of me losing. As the AI doesn't seem capable of building the ascent to transcendence in a timely fashion. I built all the factories and mineral improvements in my best mineral city, built the bulk matter transmitter, and then used that city to build the ascent. I also used alot of crawlers (standard ones- not armored).

	29-04-2005 05:09									#43
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Dissident: I'm always interested to see the Morgans do well. My friend tells me of this time a Monsoon Jungle Morgan AI he played against got a economic victory by 2225 but unfortunately he didn't keep a save.

Any chance you could email me few save games, maybe one around transcendance time, 2100 and 2200?

senethro at gmail dot com

	29-04-2005 05:30									#44
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I'll send a save. As I said, even though they built Voice of Planet long before I was even able to, they weren't a serious threat. looking back at their save, I can't find a city of their that is building ascent to transcendence. They built voice of planet but didn't bother building ascent.

I think the problem with the morganites, that despite their research my war with them has put a cramp in their style. My last unit was destroyed (so you won't be able to see it), but I had only like 3 drop shard units in their territory wrecking havoc. I didn't have enough strength to attack their units directly, instead I just destroyed terrain enhancements with them and several needlejets. Even though they could build better units than I can- they built native life!!!! . stupid. My little exursion into their closest cities (you'll see them on the save game) caused them to switch from building a planet buster to mind worms. My war started when I used a probe with logarithmic enchancement to try to catch up in tech. I'm almost always caught stealing tech.

and I wasn't interested in a major war (I'm not much into conquering everything), that's why I didn't switch from build mode to conquer mode. I just sent a few units in to wrech havoc, and that they did.

It was also my first game putting cities close together (though they aren't that close as you will see). after reading the other thread about optimum city placement. I seemed to do better with perfectionist cities. oh well.

Last edited by Dis on 29-04-2005 at 05:41

	29-04-2005 05:49									#45
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I see what the CPU did, they saw you as a threat and all pacted against you. Their main cities might be making 4 x 18 energy each from commerce. The dual morganites were probably receiving the most benefit from this.

I'm also more used to wet worlds, your arid Chiron has encouraged the CPU to plant forests which perhaps makes for a better endgame with tree farms installed. This, while making for an overall smaller population seems to have yielded more energy, the driving force behind research. They tend to farm/solar collector in wetter climes.

As for the CPUs ability to keep up with you in tech, the Angels had a lot of infiltration through pacts, someone had the PDL, CPUs above librarian have cheaper research costs and pacting encourages techsharing. Unusual, but not impossible.

	29-04-2005 06:55									#46
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yeah my diplomacy with the AI has always been lacking. It wasn't much better after I used 3 planetbusters . But even before that, it wasn't that great.

I can never get the things that you guys seem to get from the AI. They are always pissed at me. Even when I'm not on top of the power graph they rarely are nice to me.

I usually just give them what they want just to stay out of war. One time this game they asked for 4400 credits, because I had around 7000 at the time. That's why I try not to let that much acucmulate. But sometimes I make so much energy, and nothing to spend it on.

	29-04-2005 07:31									#47
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Spend it on research, then.
The AI tends not to like you if you lead in any of the categories on the powergraph.

	29-04-2005 07:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ka Plewy Spend it on research, then. Slide until you're research as much as you can, even if you go negative. The AI tends not to like you if you lead in any of the categories on the powergraph.

	29-04-2005 12:11									#49
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With 7000 money I would start hurrying everything after its off the first row of minerals. Alternatively, Marine Control Centre Cruiser Probe teams can have movement of 9 at elite and so can almost sit outside aircraft range and mind control cities that riot or which the entire air force moves to.

Turning yangs 22 missile penetrators upon his own units is fun.

	30-04-2005 02:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I usually just give them what they want just to stay out of war. One time this game they asked for 4400 credits, because I had around 7000 at the time. That's why I try not to let that much acucmulate. But sometimes I make so much energy, and nothing to spend it on.

Since I once upon a time gave a demanded research and got the answer "thank you very much - and now we are going to destroy you", I have never given anything away unless I got something in return (except map info for reseach). Usually a 40 % of the time there is a deal and eventually a treaty, another 40 % where they wont trade but keeps peace and only go to war for the rest. That is though not that big a problem because after a couple of lost attacks they usually ask for peace, wich I so grant. That is of course if I'm ready for some conquest and they happen to be the victim . The only real stubborn is Svensgard, but since he thinks that the best tactic is to blast away at my improvements, I just sink his ships with my formers.

As others has said, use those credits on research and secondly on hurry base impovements - they are worthless in stock and you regret your stockpile when the market crashes and most of your wealth dissapear.

	30-04-2005 02:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Since I once upon a time gave a demanded research and got the answer "thank you very much - and now we are going to destroy you", I have never given anything away unless I got something in return (except map info for reseach). Usually a 40 % of the time there is a deal and eventually a treaty, another 40 % where they wont trade but keeps peace and only go to war for the rest. That is though not that big a problem because after a couple of lost attacks they usually ask for peace, wich I so grant. That is of course if I'm ready for some conquest and they happen to be the victim, I don't - has to maintain my noble status . The only real stubborn is Svensgard, but since he thinks that the best tactic is to blast away at my improvements, I just sink his ships with my formers. As others has said, use those credits on research and secondly on hurry base impovements - they are worthless in stock and you regret your stockpile when the market crashes and most of your wealth dissapear.

Dammit - hit the quote instead of edit -

	30-04-2005 04:05									#52
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Played another game last night. Same settings except I used a large world instead of a huge world. And same arid planet. I like arid. Same factions except I replaced the second morgan faction with planet of cult.

Yet this game I utterly dominated. There was no contest. The only significant SP I missed was hunter-seeker algorithm. I started next to the data angels too. But I just build lots of probes.

I guess it's good that not every game is the same, or this game would get boring real quick. But it's funny the other factions never amounted to much in this game. My starting position wasn't that great. but I did have a nutrient and mineral resource nearby, I think that helped alot. I started next to mt. planet volcano again. But everything else was arid and the land was pretty much worthless until I forested it. I used a slightly tighter base formation though, but I wouldn't think it would have that much impact.

The morgans never did anything this game. The only faction of significance was the data angels.

One more thing. I've noticed when you aren't in a truce/treaty or vendetta (there is nothing next to the faction name in the window in the lower right) that their probes can steal your formers and crawlers without actually going to war with you. I was nice and let them take a couple of my formers, but when they went onto my cralwers I declared war and forced a quick blood truce.

	30-04-2005 04:07									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Dammit - hit the quote instead of edit -

I really think that there was something wrong there, since I did the same thing and I swear I hit edit.

	30-04-2005 04:10									#54
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What Land/sea percentage are you using ?

I typically use 70-90 % sea, and that changes the game considerably.

	30-04-2005 04:30									#55
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I use the middle setting almost always. It gives medium sized continents. I also launched a solar shade, but this was only when global warming was going on (caused by the gaians of all people).

I also used the middle setting for erosion. I can't remember what that does. I noticed it adds 1 or 2 moons on the screen, but I can't remember what it does. I think it has less high elevation land or something.

	30-04-2005 04:42									#56
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Yeah, it gives med siz continents, but last time I tried I started on a 3x3 island just bleow a landmass - couldn't do any tricks before finish of WP

You are right - erosion specifies elevation, but I always get it wrong wich way it is.

	30-04-2005 07:04									#57
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I often use the random setting

	01-05-2005 04:49									#58
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Map of Planet seems most balanced, so I use it...plus, I save the game a second time under scenario editor so I can plan where to place condensors and rivers to get the most effect...