22-04-2005 05:08									#61
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Zen the bottom line is the jay walkers and pot smokers are already citizens so we can't kick them out of the country. We can choose not to make the situation worse by making it difficult for other law breakers to enter the country. Right now business interests are making so much money off of breaking the wage and employment laws that they've paid politicians to look the other way when it comes to illegal immigration.

My solution is this: First you make fines based upon a percentage of gross yearly revenue for companies caught employing illegals; maybe after a few big poultry companies or corporate farms go bankrupt they might start following the law. Second, the politicians have constructed huge roadblocks to tie the hands of law enforcement when it comes to illegal aliens. Currently no one is forced to sow citizenship or proof of legal status when they apply for unemployment or welfare, when they enroll in schools or get financial aid, when they get a driver's licence, or most other government related activities. THAT IS INSANE! We use Driver's Licences to determine who people are and if they can fly on planes but anyone can get one without any supporting documentation?! How stupid is that?

We need to make it easier to enforce the laws and to catch law breaking criminals as soon as possible. This is to punish those people who choose to ignore the law and who decide to work outside the system for their own personal gain. Lastly, we need to reward those who are willing to work with in the system by increasing the number of people allowed into the country each year and by making the process simpler and easier. Doing these things will foster greater respect of the law and it will provide for the nation's security by giving the government greater control over who & what crosses the border.

We clearly have no where near enough people guarding the border and double or even tripling the border patrol will not cut it. We need to have control over our borders to stop the flow of drugs and people seeking to break American law and to do that we're going to need a lot of man power. The Army is really the only place to get that kind of man power and the Army's job is to protect the nation so it makes sense that we put it to use guarding America's borders. Lord knows that would do more for homeland security then invading Iraq.

	22-04-2005 05:09									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yeah, 'poly isn't blocked by the corporate proxy here, and I can even slack off a bit on occasion. Are you back here, or still exiled in Shitholia?

I've been back home since last Xmas.

	22-04-2005 05:12									#63
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What ever happened, to bring me your tired and your poor. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free?

Notice, it doesn't say bring me your wealthy and talented, but tired and poor.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Bringing in this immigration attracts hard working people from another country, even if it also attracts criminals. You have to take the good with the bad.

Otherwise, you get a system like we do. The good can't enter, and the bad still get in.

	22-04-2005 05:24									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen So you assume that just because they cross illegally, all those immrants are typical law-breaking, delinquent scum? Get some common sense man.

I have plenty of common sense thank you. A partial list of crimes commited by your average illegal alien are 1)illegal entry into the US 2) Working without a lawful work permite 3) Tax evation (since most work under the table for cash) 4) when they do work above the table they typically provide false ID or false SSI numbers (both felonies) 5) if my own observations living in San Diego and watching illegals run across 10 lane freeways to escape from border patrol agents are any indication then we can add evading arrest from a lawful law enforcement officer and public endangerment (running across 10 lanes of traffic is known to cause accidents) to the list.

That's the legal argument then there we get to the moral argument. My own father and grandparents his side are immigrants but they took time to fill out papers, wait in line, go through interviews, and pay application fees. Because they were trying to immigrat in 1946 and many Europeans were attempting escape war torn Europe to come to America they got turned down on there first two application. The third try they made it. It wasn't easy but they followed the law, they waited in line, and they did it the right way.

I personally take great offense to those selfish bastards who cut in line and feel they are to good to follow our laws. Those selfish individuals are spitting in the faces of every decent law abidding immigrant in this country and what makes it even worse is they're doing it because they hope to personally financially gain by breaking the law. Thanks but we have enough criminals and law breakers were we don't need to import more. I would much rather the spot be taken by some honest hard working person who takes the time to go through the legal process then let in one of those self serving bastards who thinks they're to good to wait in line.

	22-04-2005 05:30									#65
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"What ever happened, to bring me your tired and your poor. "

The children of the tired and poor got rich and now can't be bothered with the tired and poor anymore.

	22-04-2005 05:33									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What ever happened, to bring me your tired and your poor. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free? Notice, it doesn't say bring me your wealthy and talented, but tired and poor.

Everyone is talking about big increases to the numbers of immigraints allowed so the tired and poor would still be let in at higher rates then ever before. The economy is going to need workers of all skill levels but clearly we should be tilting the rules so that the educated get a leg up.

	22-04-2005 05:40									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: Well the thing is, the agriculture industry pretty much depends on illegals to do backbreaking work for crap wages. Everybody in charge knows this goes on but they look the other way. A guest worker program would make sense because it would also protect the workers. Some workers have gotten lifelong disabilities from injuries while on the job, but since they are illegal, they pretty much don't get taken care of when it happens. Guest workers have the same problem: the workers aren't really guests, and will probably stay in the US, without assimilating.

When you're a brown, non-native economic bottom-ender brought in as cheap labor to do hard manual work in harsh conditions, which most "real Americans" wouldn't do no matter how desperate they were, a lot of times folks don't really want you to assimilate. They just want you to pick cotton or lettuce or whatever and then stay the **** out of the way.

quote: I am sorry, but I was mortified by the fact that the mexicans in Cali support the Mexican team against USA in football This is such a simple lacmus paper, and they fail the test, still.

(a) Generations of them have been supporting the Mexican team long before the US even gave a damn about "soccer"

(b) So if a Yankee or Red Sox fan dares move out of NY or Beantown, should they stop rooting for their traditional team and root for whatever team they never gave a damn about, and what has nothing like the tradition of the Yankees or the Sox, just because they moved to a different place?

(c) If your answer to (b) is yes, should the character or patriotism of the entire ethnic group of the transplanted Yankee or Red Sox fan be judged because he tells you "SCREW!" and still roots for the Yankees or Sox?

(d) California was a part of Mexico seized by force from the Mexican nation in a contrived war. So contrived that Fremont had to apologize for invading early, then leave and do it again. So why shouldn't ethnic Mexicans living in California or anywhere else in the southwest not still have ties to their ancestral nation?

(e) Especially if they frequently get treated like "spics" and "beaners" and "greasers" and "wetbacks" even when they do assimilate.

	22-04-2005 06:18									#68
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ted Striker
Well the thing is, the agriculture industry pretty much depends on illegals to do backbreaking work for crap wages.
[QUOTE]

Just like it depended on the Braceros program? Don't buy into their lies, they just don't want to invest in capital improvements or actually have to think about anything other then how much cheap slave labor they can get.

	22-04-2005 06:25									#69
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My understanding of the Mexican American war was that while the US did go out of their way to provoke Mexico it was the Mexicans who actually shot the first shots.

The original treaty of Texas Independence placed the border between Texas and Mexico at the Rio Grande while the traditional border was the Nexus river further north. No sooner was the treaty signed then Mexico's dictator claimed the treaty was signed under duress and that the real border was the Nexus not the Rio Grande. From 1832 until 1845 (when Texas was annexed by the US) the Republic of Texas continued to control all of the disputed territory south of the Nexus to the Rio Grande.

President Taylor ordered a small US calvery unit to secure the territory and told them to construct a small camp directly opposite an encampment of a larger Mexican force. The Americans constructed a large flag pole and loudly sang patriotic songs while jeering the Mexican soldiers on the other side of the river. The result of the taunting was the Mexicans crossed the river and attempted to tear down the American flag at which time a gun fight broke out.

President Taylor told the Congress that American soldiers had been killed on American land and demanded Congress declare war on Mexico. He never told Congress how he had ordered the Army to jeer and provoke the Mexicans in an attempt to gain a Casus Belli. The end result was Mexico was quickyl and badly beaten since Taylor had already prepositioned the invasion force months in advance. In the entire war the Mexicans only won one battle in the entire war(the battle of San Pasqual; north of San Diego where they ambushed and drove off a calvery unit before General Kearny arrived with his whole army and sent the Mexicans fleeing south). With the US occupying Mexico City the Mexican government was forced to cede control of most of the southwest (excluding the Gadstone purchase area) to the US for $25 million.

Dirty, but the Mexican Army stepped into the bear trap so they weren't totally without fault.

	22-04-2005 09:15									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha [QUOTE] Originally posted by Ted Striker Well the thing is, the agriculture industry pretty much depends on illegals to do backbreaking work for crap wages. [QUOTE] Just like it depended on the Braceros program? Don't buy into their lies, they just don't want to invest in capital improvements or actually have to think about anything other then how much cheap slave labor they can get.

DUH, that was the whole point I was making

	22-04-2005 09:17									#71
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Caligastia and Az are also big racists, and have probably never really had a conversation with a real Mexican person, or in Cal's words, "their ilk."

	22-04-2005 09:18									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat When you're a brown, non-native economic bottom-ender brought in as cheap labor to do hard manual work in harsh conditions, which most "real Americans" wouldn't do no matter how desperate they were, a lot of times folks don't really want you to assimilate. They just want you to pick cotton or lettuce or whatever and then stay the **** out of the way.

	22-04-2005 09:35									#73
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The reality is we're not going to get any meaningful reform and the status quo is going to continue. That means companies are still going to exploit illegal labor, illegal workers will still work under the table and not pay taxes (or at least not enough to pay for the services they consume), the border will not be secured so drugs and god knows what else will keep flowing unabaited, and our laws will remain a joke.

I really do feel we should either enforce the laws or get rid of them all together but telling people they can ignore laws they don't like isn't a way to build a civil society.

	22-04-2005 09:42									#74
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If we are unwilling or unable to secure the border with Mexico then the next best thing is to try to expand NAFTA to having a free flow of labor conditioned that Mexico lets us set up some sort of joint border patrol/dia organization to seal the Mexican/Guatomalan/Belizean border. At least then the physical area which needs controlling will be smaller though the Mexican law enforcement is so corrupt I'm not sure joint efforts would be a success.

Mexico's latest picking and choosing over when and where to enforce laws on Presidential candidates illistraights how far Mexico has to go to become a mature democracy where the rule of law is respected. The massive corruption associated with Carlos Salinas de Gortari and the some what less less massive corruption associated with Ernesto Zedillo shows that the corruption goes all the way to the top in Mexico though at least Fox has been more or less corruption free.