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Sikander is offline Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
  Old Post 26-04-2005 11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
Sick society that protects its sex offenders instead of its children. Those who advocate such crap are out of their minds. I'm just sickened, and done with this thread.


Don't go off in a huff!

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 12:03
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Lancer, that place is bunk. They are trying to charge people to see the information in the Megan's Law web site when you can already get the information free from a government site.

Sikander is offline Sikander
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin

Such laws are used against homeless people in cities which don't want to pay for shelters, drug treatment programs, or mental health care to treat the causes of homelessness. Instead they just try to make life intolerable for the undesirable group so that they move some where else.

That's not good but many people are like this mayor in Maimi and would just like it if the problem would go away and become someone else's problem.


Yes, that's the intent and it's dangerous. We have to reach some form of accomodation with most people, even with our child molestors. Erect too many punitive barriers and more witnesses will be slain in order to silence them and more law officers will be killed in the line of duty by desperate criminals with nothing to lose. Molestors even now flee probation and treatment because of the onorous provisions of the law even after they've served their terms.

This law should (and I predict will) go down the same way and for many of the same reasons that the gun ban near schools went down.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 12:14
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http://www.meganslaw.ca.gov/

quote:

Megan's Law - Facts about Sex Offenders

Let us see how much we know-and see how much of what we think has been based on the myths we have all heard about sexual assault and sex offenders. Take 5 minutes to complete the True or False Quiz:

Most men who commit sexual offenses do not know their victim.

False. 90% of child victims know their offender, with almost half of the offenders being a family member. Of sexual assaults against people age 12 and up, approximately 80% of the victims know the offender.

Most sexual assaults are committed by someone of the same race as the victim.

True. Most sexual assaults are committed by someone of the same race as the victim. An exception to this is that people who commit sexual assault against Native Americans are usually not Native American (American Indians and Crime, 1999).

Most child sexual abusers use physical force or threat to gain compliance from their victims.

False. In the majority of cases, abusers gain access to their victims through deception and enticement, seldom using force. Abuse typically occurs within a long-term, ongoing relationship between the offender and victim and escalates over time.

Most child sexual abusers find their victims by frequenting such places as schoolyards and playgrounds.

False. Most child sexual abusers offend against children whom they know and with whom they have established a relationship.
Many sexual assaults of adult women are considered "confidence rapes," in that the offender knows the victim and has used that familiarity to gain access to her.

Only men commit sexual assault.

False. While most sex offenders are male, sometimes sex offenses are committed by female offenders.

Child sexual abusers are only attracted to children and are not capable of appropriate sexual relationships.

False. While there is a small subset of child sexual abusers who are exclusively attracted to children, the majority of the individuals who sexually abuse children are (or have previously been) attracted to adults.

Victims of sexual assault are harmed only when offenders use force.

False. More than any physical injuries the victim sustains, the violation of trust that accompanies most sexual assaults has been shown to dramatically increase the level of trauma the victim suffers. Emotional and psychological injuries cause harm that can last much longer than physical wounds.

If a child does not tell anyone about the abuse, it is because he or she must have consented to it.

False. Children often do not tell for a variety of reasons including the offender's threats to hurt or kill someone the victim loves, as well as shame, embarrassment, wanting to protect the offender, feelings for the offender, fear of being held responsible or being punished, fear of being disbelieved, and fear of losing the offender who may be very important to the child or the child's family.

It is common for both child and adult victims of sexual assault to wait some time before telling someone about the abuse.

True. It is common for victims of sexual assault to wait some time before telling someone. When the person was assaulted as a child, he or she may wait years or decades. The reasons for this are numerous: victims may want to deny the fact that someone they trusted could do this to them; they may want to just put it behind them; they may believe the myth that they caused the assault by their behavior; or they may fear how other people will react to the truth.

If someone sexually assaults an adult, he will not target children as victims, and if someone sexually assaults a child, he will not target adults.

False. Research and anecdotal evidence indicate that while some sex offenders choose only one type of victim (e.g., prepubescent girls, post-pubescent boys, adult women, etc.), others prey on different types of victims. Therefore, no assumptions should be made about an offender's victim preference and precautions should be taken regardless of his crime of conviction.

It helps the victim to talk about the abuse.

True. The victim's recovery will be enhanced if she or he feels believed, supported, protected, and receives counseling following the disclosure that s/he was assaulted. However, sexual assault victims should always have the choice about when, with whom, and under what conditions they wish to discuss their experiences.

Sexual gratification is often not a primary motivation for a rape offender.

True. While some offenders do seek sexual gratification from the act, sexual gratification is often not a primary motivation for a rape offender. Power, control, and anger are more likely to be the primary motivators.

Offenders could stop their sexually violent behavior on their own if they wanted to.

False. Wanting to change is usually not enough to be able to change the patterns that lead to sexual offenses. To create the motivation to change, some offenders need a variety of treatment and corrective interventions, and for others learning how to make the change in their own behavioral cycle of abuse is more effective.

Men who rape do so because they cannot find a consenting sexual partner.

False. Studies suggest that most rape offenders are married or in consenting relationships. Drugs and alcohol cause sexual offenses to occur.

False. While drugs and alcohol are often involved in sexual assaults, drugs and alcohol do not cause sexual offenses to occur. Rather, drug and alcohol use may be a disinhibitor for the offender, while being under the influence may increase a potential victim's vulnerability.

Victims of sexual assault often share some blame for the assault.

False. Adult and child victims of sexual abuse are never to blame for the assault, regardless of their behavior. Because of the age difference, children are unable to legally consent to sexual acts. They are often made to feel like willing participants, which further contributes to their shame and guilt.

If a victim does not say "no" or does not "fight back," it is not sexual assault.

False. Sexual assault victims may not say "no" or not fight back for a variety of reasons including fear and confusion. Rape victims often report being "frozen" by fear during the assault, making them unable to fight back; other victims may not actively resist for fear of angering the assailant and causing him to use more force in the assault. Pressure to be liked and not be talked about negatively by a peer will sometimes cause adolescents or children to avoid fighting back or actively resisting.

Dis is offline Dis
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 12:15 Visit Dis's homepage!
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quote:
Is the ACLU good for America?


overall- yes. But they have taken some shady cases. And their consistency is suspect sometimes.

I give their grade a B-

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 26-04-2005 12:30
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quote:
Good, someone should as the professed Libertarians here seem to be falling down on the job.


Hehe

but why is it anti-libertarian to impose fewer restrictions on pedophiles in exchange for not spending the rest of their lives permanently isolated away with people who'd gladly kill them. It would be anti-libertarian and anti-constitution (and immoral) to impose these restrictions after telling them their debt was paid, but for those in the future who acquire this debt, their payment plan will be altered. If we let em out (and I wouldn't even do that), they'll still have restrictions.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 12:42
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Currently these are the restrictions placed upon sex offenders California and the rules apply for 7-10 years (depends on offense) after release and are stopped when a Certificate of rehabilitation is earned or when the person recieves a pardon from the Governor.

1) Must Register as a sex offender with the local law enforcement agency and update this information at least once a year. If they move then they must inform the local police and reregister with in 5 days.

2) If the crime was against a minor under 16 then they may not work with children or around children or in any job which has contact with children.

3) Must notify police of any name changes with in 5 days.

4) Name, address, offense commited, date of conviction are all freely available on the internet or at any police station for all registered sex offenders.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 14:00 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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Keep up the good work in this thread Imran.

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 14:21
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The ACLU is a extremist organization that is seeking to convert the public domain into a god-free zone, undermine US foreign policy, and extend the so called right of privacy to permit the courts to legislate their idea of utopia regardless of the peoples wishes. There is no pervert or criminal that is not protected, nor a Christian organization that is not sued.

Now, all this is to the good if you just happen to be an atheist and/or anti-American.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 14:33 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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It amuses me that the US religious right tries to make protecting fundamental constitutionally protected American values like freedom of speech etc. sound "anti-American".

Crazy.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 26-04-2005 14:36
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why is it anti-American to try and stop religious folk from legislating your existence based on their religion? Many of the first peoples came here for that very reason - to get away from religious zealots. And why does my being American compel me to support the political whackos in Washington who think we can push people around and not pay a price? And privacy sure played an important role in writing the 4th Amendment, were the Framers anti-American too?

MikeH is offline MikeH
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 14:39 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Voltaire

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 26-04-2005 21:55
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"Lancer, that place is bunk. They are trying to charge people to see the information in the Megan's Law web site when you can already get the information free from a government site."-Oerdin

Yes, I was surprised to see it cost $19.95 when someone said it was free. This explains it, thanks.

Don't go off in a huff!

I did too!

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 26-04-2005 21:58
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Membership in ACLU? $20.

ACLU pissing off Ned to no end? Priceless.

ACLU

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
It amuses me that the US religious right tries to make protecting fundamental constitutionally protected American values like freedom of speech etc. sound "anti-American".

Crazy.


Mike, the anti-Americanism comes from a consistent attack on the US military by the ACLU.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Voltaire


Free speech is indeed a part of the ACLU agenda. However, it is today a very small part. The problem comes with pushing the so-called separation of Church and State, the right to privacy, and the protection of criminals. Their interpretation of all these so-called constitutional rights is extreme.

On the US foregn policy, they are constantly filing FOI trying to expose US military secrets on the war on terror, etc. The want to expose everything we are doing on al Qa'ida based on their assumption that we are torturing detainees.

Admiral is offline Admiral
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned


Mike, the anti-Americanism comes from a consistent attack on the US military by the ACLU.


So how do you explain the fact that a number of conservatives work for the ACLU? Are you allies also un-American?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Admiral


So how do you explain the fact that a number of conservatives work for the ACLU? Are you allies also un-American?


Interesting. I too was once a member.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 00:47 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Sikander, Imran, Guynemer:

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 01:00
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yeah, the ACLU attacks the US army when they torture prisoners. torturing is american, and attacking the US army when they do that is unamerican.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
Just watched what's his nime, the Irish guy, on FOX. He was interviewing the mayor of Miami who was trying to get a law through which would make convicted sex offenders stay 500 feet from the beach. Apparently the ACLU will fight it...

Wtf is wrong with such a law? Keep the perverts away from their prey, protect the people, children, etc? Wtf is wrong with the ACLU?


1. "Is the ACLU good for America?" Yes.

2. "What's wrong with this law?" If the guy was a habitual beach offender, keep him from the beaches! But he's not, so the law is stupid.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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The Potterverse
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time: 00:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 01:43
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quote:
but why is it anti-libertarian to impose fewer restrictions on pedophiles in exchange for not spending the rest of their lives permanently isolated away with people who'd gladly kill them. It would be anti-libertarian and anti-constitution (and immoral) to impose these restrictions after telling them their debt was paid, but for those in the future who acquire this debt, their payment plan will be altered. If we let em out (and I wouldn't even do that), they'll still have restrictions.


Because, firstly, child molestation is a Type 1 Felony (usually) and type 1 felonies do NOT carry the punishment of life in jail. Only murder has that punishment. Even rape doesn't fall under 'life in jail'. Therefore, it is not in exchange for not keeping them in jail for life. I think most courts would consider life in jail for one child molestation (that did not result in death) not to proportional, just as using the death penalty for rapists was decided to be non-proportional.

Secondly, the way it works is that they serve the full 20 years (who is letting a child molester out early?) and then they have additional penalties put upon them. The localities say, oh that isn't a punishment that falls under the statutory maximum. It'd be like someone serving their entire maximum for drunk driving and then being told they couldn't buy alcohol for the next 10 years.

This is different than parole. If you let the guy out 10 years in and then said you could do this stuff for the next 10 years, until you reach your statutory maximum, that's something entirely different.

However, this law seems to say that child molestors, even after they've done their max time, can't go to the beach for an undetermined time... and as pointed out, seems like the law is so child molestors go somewhere else and become some other city's problem.

quote:
Free speech is indeed a part of the ACLU agenda. However, it is today a very small part.


You know absolutely nothing about the ACLU's agenda. Their biggest programs right now is acting against the PATRIOT Act, which has great implications on free speech.

quote:
nor a Christian organization that is not sued.


And Ned ignores all the times the ACLU has DEFENDED Christian churches which are being forced out of a community. Of course that doesn't fit with his world view.

quote:
On the US foregn policy, they are constantly filing FOI trying to expose US military secrets on the war on terror, etc. The want to expose everything we are doing on al Qa'ida based on their assumption that we are torturing detainees.


Heaven forbid they want to find out all the information after we have pictures proving we were treating the Iraqi detainees in Abu Ghirab less than humanely.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Mike, the anti-Americanism comes from a consistent attack on the US military by the ACLU.


Cite? The only thing I've seen the ACLU say which protained to the military is that everyone had a right to a trial by jury and had a right to legal representation. Since the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) wants to protect constitutional rights it seems like advocating the constitution's protections of due process and trial by jury is what they are doing not attacking the military.

It is nice know you believe everyone who opposes Bush's illegal detentions without trials or charges is unAmerican in your eyes.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 02:56 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Why is prison the only way to repay that debt? How about a combination of jail and a less limited access to society?


Then it needs to be a part of sentencing. The community doesn't get to just tack on conditions as it sees fit.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 03:02 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Aren't felons already restricted from voting anyways?


Only while serving their sentences. Eight states also have laws prohibitting ex-felons from voting, including Florida. These laws are not intended to punish ex-felons, btw, but were designed to weaken the Black vote.

Zkribbler is offline Zkribbler
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Feb 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 03:48
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quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Zkribbler
1st Amendment concerns are triggered when Imran's House of Happy Children's Books is allow to open up across the street from a school but the evil Zribbler's Wide World of Porn must keep at least 1/2 mile away.

Originally posted by Imran
That's not a 1st Amendment issue. The city passing such a law (putting them under a different zoning requirement) uses the secondary effects doctrine, using statistics saying that adult stores depress property values and increase crime. Its considered a regulation of business and not a 1st Amendment issue.

As long as the law is not designed to eliminate adult stores and can prove the secondary effects through statistical analysis, it doesn't rise to a 1st Amendment issue.


Government regulation of speech (book sales) based upon the content of the speech does trigger 1st Amended concerns. My guess is that the government used "the secondary effects doctrine, using statistics saying that adult stores depress property values and increase crime" to show a compelling governmental interest, and the zoning regulation was narrowly tailored to protect that interest.

I'm wondering if the same kind of analysis can't be used to keep ex-con child molesters away from children.

Whoha is offline Whoha
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The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 04:48
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http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/262005g.asp

Not when they pull this crap, in response to the question in the title.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 05:03
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Re: Is the ACLU good for America? Get a bigger avatar today!

Yes. Beyond any doubt.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 27-04-2005 05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zkribbler
Government regulation of speech (book sales) based upon the content of the speech does trigger 1st Amended concerns. My guess is that the government used "the secondary effects doctrine, using statistics saying that adult stores depress property values and increase crime" to show a compelling governmental interest, and the zoning regulation was narrowly tailored to protect that interest.

I'm wondering if the same kind of analysis can't be used to keep ex-con child molesters away from children.


Except for the fact that the court has stated repeated that 1st Amendment concerns don't apply to generally applicable zoing laws. Zoning laws have various different classifications and putting a commerical enterprise in a lower classification between of property values depreciation and crime increasing does not implicate 1st Amendment issues. That is why you have to prove that it increases crime and lower property values, because the general zoning law requires such.

Even if it was a 1st Amendment issue, and passed muster, you can't apply a decision to adult commerical enterprises to people! People have far more rights than businesses. Any 1st Amendment challege to adult bookstores would be based on free speech. This is not free speech, but a violation of the right to travel, under substantive due process of the 14th and 5th Amendments. Totally different basis for challenge, and therefore you can't just take a 1st Amendment case's reason and apply it to a totally different area of jurisprudence.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 27-04-2005 05:13
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