27-04-2005 17:19									#31
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We desperately need a new refinery in California, and I agree that nuclear power is the way to go for electricity.

	27-04-2005 17:42									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Skywise Nuke plants Refineries Hydro Plants Windmills Solar homes

We just went over why solar will never work on a large scale and why it is totaly unfeasable in most of the country. Wind power is a good idea but to be economical it can only really be put in high wind areas like the coast or mountain passes and it needs large amounts of land in order to generate decent amounts of electricity so it will also remain a niche player. Hydro is damn good (if you pardon the pun) but there are few new areas we could build dams and even then the eviromentalists would be up in arms over the idea. I do think our country needs more big dams since they provide the cheapest source of non-green house producing electricity plus provide water for crops and cities. Out west we especially need the increased water storage capacity.

That just leaves nuclear power or fossil fuels to provide the bulk of our electricity needs and faced with those options nuclear power is much better for the enviroment and it doesn't support oil dictators in various parts of the world so I'm all for nuclear power.

	27-04-2005 17:46									#33
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Hydro+Nuke+ a bit of solar and tide.

Fusion > *

	27-04-2005 17:55									#34
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I understand that nuke plants are your best option but someday, Chernobyl will happen again...Where and when, we dont know, but it will.

	27-04-2005 18:04									#35
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So we've had one bad accident in 50 years and that amounts to a good safety record. Especially since the Soviets knew their design was substandard, that the construction didn't even meet those substandard specs, and that the people running that plant weren't properly trained. Dispite all the Soviet corner cutting and bad decisions making Soviet reactors the world's most dangerous we still only got one case.

With proper design, regulation, and training nuclear power is extremely safe and cost effective. Even the end waste can be recycled, refined, and reused so that it isn't a problem. It certainly produces less pollution then even the cleanest fossil fuel powered plant.

	27-04-2005 18:13									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So we've had one bad accident in 50 years and that amounts to a good safety record. Especially since the Soviets knew their design was substandard, that the construction didn't even meet those substandard specs, and that the people running that plant weren't properly trained. Dispite all the Soviet corner cutting and bad decisions making Soviet reactors the world's most dangerous we still only got one case. With proper design, regulation, and training nuclear power is extremely safe and cost effective. Even the end waste can be recycled, refined, and reused so that it isn't a problem. It certainly produces less pollution then even the cleanest fossil fuel powered plant.

I couldn't agree more, but still, accidents happen. Maybe my fear is based on the fact that I have no idea on how nuke plants work and/or I dont know the safety precautions after a breakdown.

	27-04-2005 18:20									#37
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How do nuclear plants work?

Basically they use steam power to make turbines spin. The nuclear reactor creates the heat and a heat exchanger (similiar to the heater in your car) is used to boil water producing the steam. It's a new twist on 19th century steam power.

	27-04-2005 18:24									#38
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everything is the same principle. make something spin, that will make the magnet spin, that will make electricity.

	27-04-2005 19:16									#39
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3400 sq. m != 3.4 sq. km.
1,000,000 sq. m = 1 sq. km.

You will have to redo your math again.

1,680,000 plants using 3400 sq. m. of space =
5,712 sq. km. We could probably get that by covering all the desert areas of CA, AR, and NV.

The Sahara would be a good spot fo Africa and Europe

Last edited by pchang on 27-04-2005 at 19:34

	27-04-2005 20:49									#40
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People's aversion to nuclear energy is a result of scaremongering by eco-nuts after Three-Mile Island.

Oh, and I like the solar-power in the Sahara idea. Wind power has great potential around here, this is one of the windiest areas in the US.

	27-04-2005 22:39									#41
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Hmm, so basically we would switch our energy dependency from the ME to Afrika, yep, that sure sounds like a great improvement.


Solar energy

	27-04-2005 22:43									#42
	Re: BP Solar turns profit Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DanS I think this is good news. BP Solar has turned a profit for the first time on about $400 million in business. It also is enjoying steady growth in the sector (on the order of 40%). I did some checking on the cost of solar photovoltaics a couple of months ago and it still doesn't make sense by a long shot for what I would like to use it for, but it's slowly getting there.

My uncle uses something like that and he can heat all the water used by the family ( 5 peeps) to about 40C (a bit more than body temperatue). Of course our prices are higher than yours but then again, our climate isn't all that great.

He is verry happy about it, he said that the sysem will pay itself back in about 10 years and that was with cheaper energy prices. So that number prob dropped to 7. Not bad imo.

	27-04-2005 22:44									#43
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Sahara = hardly better than ME.

	27-04-2005 23:01									#44
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The ideal place to put a solar power plant is in space, where there's no atmosphere to get in the way, and no nighttime either. Power would be beamed down with microwaves to recievers, where it would heat water and spin turbines. A proposal to build such satellites first came up in the 1970s during the first oil crisis.

Using materials mined on the Moon, the project was supposed to turn a profit around now had it been started in the 70s.

	27-04-2005 23:09									#45
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microwaves get absorbed in all sort of stuff, contrary to popular belief. might as well throw a cable back to earth.

	27-04-2005 23:09									#46
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quote: Power would be beamed down with microwaves to recievers

Sure that's not going to harm the atmosphere in any way?

	27-04-2005 23:10									#47
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quote: Sure that's not going to harm the atmosphere in any way?

It won't.

	27-04-2005 23:17									#48
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That much microwave energy is bound to sterlize rare mountain goats or something either that or it will create huge build ups of Ozone and no one will be able to tan at the beach any more.

	27-04-2005 23:29									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Skywise I couldn't agree more, but still, accidents happen. Maybe my fear is based on the fact that I have no idea on how nuke plants work and/or I dont know the safety precautions after a breakdown.

I'ld wager dollars to donuts more people have died in coal and fossil fuel plants than all the victims of nuclear power and outlying residents combined.

Let alone the *gasp* CO2 emitted and acid rain implications.

For example, my brother works at a co-gen plant using coal fines from abandoned strip mines. More people are burnt from flash fire blow backs every year then you really want to know about.

	27-04-2005 23:32									#50
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bushs energy plan makes no sense. hes talking out of both sides of his ass. first he wants to develope alternate fuels by subsidies, then he wants to develope more traditional fuels by tax and regulation breaks. tell me, how does that make us want to move from traditional to alternate fuels?

	27-04-2005 23:37									#51
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I love it when the Fossil Fuel industry talks about "Clean Coal." Clean coal? thats an oxymoron.

	27-04-2005 23:38									#52
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quote: The ideal place to put a solar power plant is in space, where there's no atmosphere to get in the way, and no nighttime either. Power would be beamed down with microwaves to recievers, where it would heat water and spin turbines. A proposal to build such satellites first came up in the 1970s during the first oil crisis. Using materials mined on the Moon, the project was supposed to turn a profit around now had it been started in the 70s.

Solar Power Satellites require several hundreds of billions of dollars in capital expenditures before break-even and, as such, make nuclear power's gargantuan capital requirements look insignificant in comparison.

I'm skeptical that they will ever work in the real world, unless we start building space elevators with a core of nano-wire to transport the electricity from orbit to the ground. (This actually is a very sound idea, although we don't have the required materials yet and may never have the required materials.)

I worked on one of these SPS projects in a former life. Conceptually, they make sense. But I think the public will resist the microwave transportation, no matter how good it works.

	27-04-2005 23:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS But I think the public will resist the microwave transportation, no matter how good it works.

Yep, basically, nuts will start screaming that it would burn a hole in the atmosphere, and people will beleive them.

	27-04-2005 23:43									#54
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To be clear, we don't know all of the gotchas with regard to the environment of beaming energy through microwaves from orbit to Earth. Also, there may be unintended consequences with things like insects or some birds, for instance (you never know).

On the other hand, birds might fly into a space elevator too.

* DanS shrugs shoulders

	27-04-2005 23:47									#55
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Just wait until a plane flies into the microwave beam... it'd beam like microwaving aluminum foil, except a BAZILLION TIMES BIGGER.

...

I want to see that

	27-04-2005 23:49									#56
	Put an end to popups!

Wait until the first plane flies into a space elevator too.

Could be impressive to watch.

	27-04-2005 23:50									#57
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It's probably easier to avoid a gigantic cable than a beam of light.

	27-04-2005 23:53									#58
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The "beam of light" would be very large in comparison and wouldn't be visible, but indeed a space elevator would be easier to miss.

	28-04-2005 00:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Yep, basically, nuts will start screaming that it would burn a hole in the atmosphere, and people will beleive them.

I was way ahead of you..

Ignorance

	28-04-2005 11:36									#60
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A microwave beam could have military applications as well- why bomb when you can zap?