04-05-2005 02:26									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin $17k a week? That's expensive, but when you consider how much we waste on sports personalities glorified wage earnings its damn cheap.

force one of them to pay for it.

	04-05-2005 02:30									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Actually, you probably would save more lives and produce a greater net utility by giving it to, say, an emergency room or something like that. Or just find two kids who each have a disease that only costs 8.5k a week.

THats silly-- Do you think there are two kids needing drugs at 8.5K would be denied them if this kid gets his 17K treatment? Bullcrap!! Why couldn't the government make a policy decision and deny those 8.5K kids as well . . . I would think funding an expensive treatment makes it harder to deny less expensive one . . .

!!!!!! Thats it we do a formula to calculate the worth of a given human being and if the maintence cost (prorated and risk adjusted) is less than the residual value, you get the needed treatment. sarcasm/off


Seriously, the Canadian health care budget is many many billions. Paying for this kids drug is a mere drop in a large funding bucket. Yes it will set a precedent but its a precedent I like. Treat children.

If you say we can't afford it, then I would tell you if we have to set priorities, I know I'd be in favor of prioritizing people where effective care is possible.

I know of a burn victim that was burned over a large portion of his body. It was such a high proportion that the survival rate is ZERO. But it takes a long time to die. IN his case it was over 500 days and included a dozen skin grafts, hundreds of tests and more painkilling and anti-infection drugs than can be counted. He never woke up or regained any motor skills at all but there was brain function. We treated him without question

	04-05-2005 02:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker force one of them to pay for it.

Take Jose Mourinho, he could pay the $17k a week and still be earning $300,000 a week.

	04-05-2005 02:32									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: I don't -- I love life . Clearly, you have a better dealer than I do. PM me his contact info?

You know-- never needed chemicals to have a good time.

If you use them for fun, your choice . . .. but if you need them to tolerate life, you have my pity

	04-05-2005 02:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber THats silly-- Do you think there are two kids needing drugs at 8.5K would be denied them if this kid gets his 17K treatment? Bullcrap!! Why couldn't the government make a policy decision and deny those 8.5K kids as well . . . I would think funding an expensive treatment makes it harder to deny less expensive one . . .

I doubt there are two kids who require precisely 8.5K a week anyway. The point is that most lifesaving treatments, AFAIK, cost less than this.

	04-05-2005 02:36									#36
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quote: You know-- never needed chemicals to have a good time. If you use them for fun, your choice . . .. but if you need them to tolerate life, you have my pity

My sarchasm is a bottomless pit.

SO SAY WE ALL!

	04-05-2005 02:37									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin $17k a week? That's expensive, but when you consider how much we waste on sports personalities glorified wage earnings its damn cheap.

I have actually been suprised that someone hasn't come forward with a donation or contribution. I am actually hoping that this is not done so as to take the government off the hook.

Don't get me wrong -- I mainly want the kid to get the drug but every time a charitable group steps forward and takes the government off the hook for something for which it should be responsible . . . err I just hate it. Then the next kid and the one after have to fight the issue all over again

	04-05-2005 02:40									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I doubt there are two kids who require precisely 8.5K a week anyway. The point is that most lifesaving treatments, AFAIK, cost less than this.

I agree. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there taking heart or blood pressure medicines or treatments for diabetes. SO definitely most treatments are less costly.

There are also hundreds of people in intensive care type units. If you start adding up the costs of their care, its not like 17K a week is so outstandingly expensive to keep someone alive

	04-05-2005 02:40									#39
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quote: I have actually been suprised that someone hasn't come forward with a donation or contribution. I am actually hoping that this is not done so as to take the government off the hook. Don't get me wrong -- I mainly want the kid to get the drug but every time a charitable group steps forward and takes the government off the hook for something for which it should be responsible . . . err I just hate it. Then the next kid and the one after have to fight the issue all over again

This, I almost agree and disagree with.

While I'd like to see a personal donor come forward, mostly because it would show that some people actually have decency, it would also almost certainly put the kid and the family into a sort of life-debt to the donor.

At the same time, it would also help prove that if people cared for each other, and actually followed some precepts that so-called Christians/Good People/Morally Righteous always trumpet (y'know, the Love thy neighbor stuff...), we wouldn't need a government to fall back on. 'Cept people are invariably insensitive, cruel bastards who won't prove me wrong, and the government is run by schmucks.

	04-05-2005 02:49									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed At the same time, it would also help prove that if people cared for each other, and actually followed some precepts that so-called Christians/Good People/Morally Righteous always trumpet (y'know, the Love thy neighbor stuff...), we wouldn't need a government to fall back on. 'Cept people are invariably insensitive, cruel bastards who won't prove me wrong, and the government is run by schmucks.

Here I kinda agree with you. Its just in Canada I see helping pay for medicare system as being a "help each other out" type of thing. I much rather our system to one where we have a telethon each week for the latest person needing hospitalization. I don't trumpet anthing about morality to anyone. I'm just willing to help pay for anyone to get medical care. There is a self interest there as well I admit in that the system would be tehre fore me should I ever need it.

	04-05-2005 02:54									#41
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quote: I'm just willing to help pay for anyone to get medical care. There is a self interest there as well I admit in that the system would be tehre fore me should I ever need it.

Fair enough. Still, sucks to be that kid. Hope his misery can be extended.

	04-05-2005 04:10									#42
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quote: If we want a system that denies a child the drug that will vastly improve and lengthen his life ( thats my assumption here, that the drug will help a lot), be prepared to have others look at medical expenses of other treatments. Wander through an ICU . . . . probably half the patients have no hope of a recovery. If you deny a child this drug on ECONOMIC grounds I wonder how you justify the economics of an 88 year old on a ventilator

I wasn't thinking so much about the folks on the ventilators, but rather about other medical treatment not required to save someone's life, that doesn't cost as much as this.

	04-05-2005 06:37									#43
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Maybe the drug was über-expensive in terms of R and D and there's like 20 people on Earth who needs it.

From around the internet, it affects somewhere between 1 in 25K to 100K births. Rare yes, but not that rare.

quote: Originally posted by pchang Since it is a rare disease, the replacement enzyme is probably: 1) grown in batches requiring a high level of manual guidance 2) from bacterial stock that must be continually replaced through genetic manipulation to make sure mutations do not creep in. 3) separated and purified in batches requiring a high level of manual guidance 4) created in a low yield process 5) done continuously in small batches to maintain a consistent, but small fresh supply (enzymes tend to have a very short half life)

With 850K you could employ two full time techs and still have 6 or 700K a year to pay for equipment and R&D costs. That is two full time techs dedicated to a single patient.

I'm still smelling a gouge.

	04-05-2005 06:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Well sort of. The medicare program has never been a blank cheque to fund any treatment that people happen to want. But here I support the government funding the drug. Its available and the child can have a decent quality of life. If this costs 15 million dollars, so be it. We spend far more money on thisngs that are far less laudable. I do think that the pricing should be examined so that it is reasonable but if it is expensive to discover and make, the drug company might be justified with even this high price

The problem could be that there are some socialised countries and some high-end insurance plans, and some very wealthy individuals...

So that there is a market that can afford to pay for a med for any condition. If only ten people suffer from the condition who are covered by 'any price coverage', then develop the drug and recoup the costs and make a profit off of the ten payers for those ten people.

There should be considerably more than ten people in Canada with this condition. Say there are 50. That's 40 million a year for meds for those 50 people. That's a lot of R&D money.

I agree with you. Junior should get his meds. I am questioning how they are priced.

	04-05-2005 07:47									#45
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quote: With 850K you could employ two full time techs and still have 6 or 700K a year to pay for equipment and R&D costs. That is two full time techs dedicated to a single patient. I'm still smelling a gouge.

Make sure to include the costs for all the unsuccessful drug candidates into the costs for this successful drug candidate.

	04-05-2005 07:53									#46
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The problem could be that there are some socialised countries and some high-end insurance plans, and some very wealthy individuals... So that there is a market that can afford to pay for a med for any condition. If only ten people suffer from the condition who are covered by 'any price coverage', then develop the drug and recoup the costs and make a profit off of the ten payers for those ten people. There should be considerably more than ten people in Canada with this condition. Say there are 50. That's 40 million a year for meds for those 50 people. That's a lot of R&D money. I agree with you. Junior should get his meds. I am questioning how they are priced.

Then we are in full agreement. I agree that it seems like a heck of a lot of money for a drug treatment but for all I know they need to filter it through 6 different screens made of 8 ozs of solid gold each .

Pay only a reasonable price for the drug but don't deny it to the kid on economic grounds ...... In fairness I am not sure why it is being denied. It may be red tape where the drug has not yet been approved ( for reasons unrelated to cost)

	04-05-2005 07:56									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Make sure to include the costs for all the unsuccessful drug candidates into the costs for this successful drug candidate.

but more of that would be built in to the price of drugs taken by millions of people.

Also on profitability-- Isn't it better for the drug company to get some money ( in excess of production costs) rather than set a price so high that your potential customer dies-- Or do we think that they just assume that the system sill pay regardless of price

	04-05-2005 08:15									#48
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Imagine having an illness that would kill you if you didn't come up with $17,000 a week...

	04-05-2005 08:17									#49
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Imagine people wanting to charge $17K per week to save a life...

	04-05-2005 08:22									#50
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Yeah, like I said. Imagine if it was you. Sitting there in your chair, think how you'll come up with the first weeks 17Gs. Or, think about your funeral. Who you going to invite?

	04-05-2005 08:25									#51
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Only those who would like to dance.

	04-05-2005 08:28									#52
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I think I'd go climbing. Head up some mountain and see how far I got. The wife wouldn't like that much though. I guess I'd just wait it out here. Let the wife invite who she wants...

	04-05-2005 08:38									#53
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I am on a timed delay in getting your point.

Yes, it sucks that these things are priced out the way they are.

If polio or malaria cropped up now, I'm afraid the third world needn't apply for the meds, since there's no way in hell they could ever afford to pay for them.

	04-05-2005 08:57									#54
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It would cost $800 million (usd) and take 15 years to get quinine to market.

Only rich people, or those covered by socialised medicine would get a shot at it.

So, tourists to the tropics would get treatment when they came home with malaria, but the poor suckers who live near the swamps could just die.

Something has gone horribly wrong.

	04-05-2005 09:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is a good article. If all the good things about Canada's health system that I hear from KrazyHorse are true, then you Canucks will mark this up to fulfilling the requirements for a civilized country and pay the bill happily.

We are paying the bill. There's no way the politicians will let this kid die because of money. Their heads would be on pikes outside the city gates.

Theoretically, drug costs are not covered under medicare, but as I said...

Now, we might just "persuade" the drug company into selling the stuff to us cheaper. Expecially if it's a big one that sells us other drugs. The big, unspoken fact in our "negotiations" with the pharmacorps is that we can make unlicensed drugs at any point if we should choose to break their patents, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it...

	04-05-2005 09:26									#56
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I like the catfight between Dosanjh and Klein over whose turn it is to pick up the tab...

	04-05-2005 09:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We are paying the bill. There's no way the politicians will let this kid die because of money. Their heads would be on pikes outside the city gates. Theoretically, drug costs are not covered under medicare, but as I said...

Maybe not, but what about Indian and Northern Affairs?

The fed is on the hook for meds for status citizens.

quote: Now, we might just "persuade" the drug company into selling the stuff to us cheaper. Expecially if it's a big one that sells us other drugs. The big, unspoken fact in our "negotiations" with the pharmacorps is that we can make unlicensed drugs at any point if we should choose to break their patents, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it...

I don't think that is entirely true. WTO and NAFTA would have something to say on the issue.

	04-05-2005 09:39									#58
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe not, but what about Indian and Northern Affairs? The fed is on the hook for meds for status citizens. I don't think that is entirely true. WTO and NAFTA would have something to say on the issue.

We have exemptions on drugs and health care (as do other signatories) IIRC

Otherwise we'd already be on the hook.

Brazil copies drugs all the time, and the WTO hasn't said word one about it yet.

	04-05-2005 10:14									#59
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quote: Now, we might just "persuade" the drug company into selling the stuff to us cheaper. Expecially if it's a big one that sells us other drugs. The big, unspoken fact in our "negotiations" with the pharmacorps is that we can make unlicensed drugs at any point if we should choose to break their patents, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it...

I wouldn't put it past you lot, but you must know that this would just discourage drug companies from researching, developing, and commercializing expensive drugs with limited markets. People will die in the future because of this choice that you make now.

	04-05-2005 10:34									#60
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The system would be seriously broken if the government or someone doesn't pay for the treatment- the money has already been spent to do the R&D, so if the results of that research aren't getting used, it'd be a huge waste.