05-05-2005 00:40									#31
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quote: Originally posted by rah Where's Jack Bauer when you need him

I never understood how that Englishman could play an American cowboy in Young Guns.

	05-05-2005 01:42									#32
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark is there anything beyond "tell the truth please, it would so help us?" that would be acceptable? Being questioned is unpleasant - does that mean you will always get false answers? Does it mean its always wrong to question a prisoner?

Responding to one question with three... splendid attempt to change the subject. The last two are straight out the Nedaverse.

	05-05-2005 01:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral No. This isn't about US law, or political advantage, or anything. Torture is wrong, and there can be no justification. Torture is the distillation of all the pain of war into an ultimate form, designed to destroy the world of the one who is tortured.

So?

Why should I care about this person?

quote: In the end, torture by the US would be about revenge. And when we consider that in the minds of Al Qaida, terrorism is motivated by revenge, we see that we would be no better than them. And I care enough about my country not to want that to happen.

It's clearly NOT about revenge, it's about convincing someone to provide info. While I won't weigh in on the debate about whether it is a reliable method, there is nothing that makes torture inherently vengeful.

	05-05-2005 02:13									#34
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its well documented that torture does not give good info.

	05-05-2005 02:57									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia its well documented that torture does not give good info.

quote: While I won't weigh in on the debate about whether it is a reliable method, there is nothing that makes torture inherently vengeful.

	05-05-2005 03:04									#36
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quote: It's clearly NOT about revenge, it's about convincing someone to provide info. While I won't weigh in on the debate about whether it is a reliable method, there is nothing that makes torture inherently vengeful.

What makes torture inherently about revenge is how ineffective it is at anything else. When you put a person in a situation where the only thing that is real to them is the pain being inflicted on them, they will say anything that you want them to say. In the context of gathering intelligence, this makes is useless, since the truth is often different from what the questioner wants to hear. And any questions asked before the victim "breaks" suffer all the same problems as just asking the questions without inflicting pain, in that the victim can choose to lie or mislead. When you couple this with the places torture is practiced, you see that it is either to fictionally solidify the power of the torturers, or to enact revenge.

In this case, especially in light of your "why should i care" comment, it evidently is the latter. The inevitable progression is to a point where you see the other as less human, and would support inflicting pain upon him in a way that you would not support were it someone you considered equally human. You should care because torture is an ultimate evil, notthat which is only evil when applied to the wrong people.

	05-05-2005 03:06									#37
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quote: What makes torture inherently about revenge is how ineffective it is at anything else.

You believe it to be ineffective at anything else. Others do not share your belief. The actual effectiveness of torture as a method of interrogation has no relevence to the motive of the user.

	05-05-2005 03:08									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral In this case, especially in light of your "why should i care" comment, it evidently is the latter. The inevitable progression is to a point where you see the other as less human, and would support inflicting pain upon him in a way that you would not support were it someone you considered equally human.

Actually, you're exactly right there. I don't believe that those who order people to launch suicide attacks on civilians have much in the way of rights.

quote: You should care because torture is an ultimate evil, notthat which is only evil when applied to the wrong people.

Except it's not an ultimate evil. There is no ultimate evil. That would require an act to be wrong in every possible circumstance.

	05-05-2005 03:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I never understood how that Englishman could play an American cowboy in Young Guns.

Half English half Canadian. He's the grandson of Tommy Douglas