08-05-2005 03:05									#31
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Nope

	08-05-2005 12:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber If they don't go to that church then they can go to the one on the next street over.

Some of those kicked out had been at that parish for 25 years, far longer than the pastor who expelled them. You have to admit that it isn't so simple as going to the next church over for someone like that.

This is an appalling incident, anyone should see that.

	08-05-2005 13:20									#33
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quote: Some of those kicked out had been at that parish for 25 years

Parish?

I didn't know baptist churches had parishes?

That being said, if someone who has been there 30 years, are they more valuable than someone who has only been there 3?

	08-05-2005 13:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Churches aren't taxed as they are non-profit organizations. Leaders such as Bush are free to get their philosophical views from whatever philosophy they choose.

You only get a tax exemption if you don't advocate one political party while being non-profit. A non-profit Republican Party organization is taxed. Tax exempt organizations cannot be overtly political ones.

	08-05-2005 20:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That being said, if someone who has been there 30 years, are they more valuable than someone who has only been there 3?

Yes.

	08-05-2005 20:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That being said, if someone who has been there 30 years, are they more valuable than someone who has only been there 3?

Churches are communities, so yes, long time members are much more likely to be more valuable than newcomers.

	08-05-2005 20:52									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Parish? I didn't know baptist churches had parishes?

Whatever, the terminology isn't exactly crucial here.

quote: That being said, if someone who has been there 30 years, are they more valuable than someone who has only been there 3?

Who said it's a question of value of the churchgoer? Making up arguments again...

If anyone, regardless of their length of attending, was kicked out like this, they'd have a right to be upset. But someone who had been there 25 years and had served the church as a deacon (as one of those kicked out did) would have even more of a right to be upset.

So it's not something many people can blithely dismiss and go next door, as Sprayber commented. Even I can see that church is a particularly important aspect of some people's lives, especially in a small community like this.

	08-05-2005 21:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Churches aren't taxed as they are non-profit organizations. Leaders such as Bush are free to get their philosophical views from whatever philosophy they choose.

But this is not the case here...it is vice versa, the church (despite their protests) pushing a particular political agenda...

	08-05-2005 21:19									#39
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Churches should not be tax exempt. Why should the rest of us have to subsidize lunacy?

	08-05-2005 21:23									#40
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You're preaching to the converted here Agathon

	08-05-2005 21:26									#41
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Perhaps that should be the next evil liberal campaign against Xtianity.

	08-05-2005 22:03									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I miss being Episcopalian.

You could come back. We have an open door policy.

	08-05-2005 22:05									#43
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There's that whole believing in God thing I can't get past, and I don't think they would either.

	08-05-2005 23:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why should the rest of us have to subsidize lunacy?

I often wonder that myself. Why do Canadians pay your salary?

	09-05-2005 00:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's that whole believing in God thing I can't get past, and I don't think they would either.

Actually I've known a few......................

	09-05-2005 01:32									#46
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quote: If anyone, regardless of their length of attending, was kicked out like this, they'd have a right to be upset. But someone who had been there 25 years and had served the church as a deacon (as one of those kicked out did) would have even more of a right to be upset.

So following your argument, it would be worse to kick out a pastor than to kick out a parishioner.

Therefore, the pastor gets priority.

	09-05-2005 04:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So following your argument, it would be worse to kick out a pastor than to kick out a parishioner. Therefore, the pastor gets priority.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It's not like this was Church Survivor, and somebody HAD to be voted out of the congregation. So no choice between pastor and parishioner is needed. The parishioners weren't trying to get the pastor kicked out, after all.

If you'd actually read the story, by the way, you'd know that the pastor had only been there three years. The longest-attending parishioner booted had been there 45 years.

Honestly, I can't believe anyone would defend this pastor's actions. They're reprehensible.

	09-05-2005 04:23									#48
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Over forty parishoners have left the congregation in protest. I wonder why they simply didn't remove the pastor.

	09-05-2005 04:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I often wonder that myself. Why do Canadians pay your salary?

I don't know.

	09-05-2005 04:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Over forty parishoners have left the congregation in protest. I wonder why they simply didn't remove the pastor.

The latest news I read said that, as a result of this affair, they may end up doing just that.

	09-05-2005 04:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Church Survivor

	09-05-2005 04:56									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You only get a tax exemption if you don't advocate one political party while being non-profit. A non-profit Republican Party organization is taxed. Tax exempt organizations cannot be overtly political ones.

They're not engaging in politicaly activity, they are merely limiting their membership to supporters of a particular candidate.

For instance, if a charity such as the United Way decided it wished to no longer hire Republicans, that wouldn't effect it's tax-emept status so long as it didn't go out and campaign for Dems.

	09-05-2005 04:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi They're not engaging in politicaly activity, they are merely limiting their membership to supporters of a particular candidate.

Wrong, they were trying to force them to vote a different way.

	09-05-2005 06:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi They're not engaging in politicaly activity, they are merely limiting their membership to supporters of a particular candidate. For instance, if a charity such as the United Way decided it wished to no longer hire Republicans, that wouldn't effect it's tax-emept status so long as it didn't go out and campaign for Dems.

I'm certain you're wrong here. They would lose their tax exempt status under those circumstances, its a matter of actively presuring people to vote a certain way with their hiring practices. Of course in this case it would be like the United Way FIRING people who voted Republican and refused to do otherwise in the future. That would be illegal behavoir by the way, although its not illegal in of itself when a church expells its membership, it just makes it lose its tax exempt status.

	09-05-2005 08:07									#55
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Boris:

First of all, a church is allowed to take a stance on issues, without endorsing candidates. Without being able to see the story, it is difficult for me to say whether the pastor is endorsing a candidate or a position.

Secondly, those who do vote for a politician who has an avowed pro-abortion stance, are complicit in the pro abortion policies passed by the politician, regardless of the party to whom the candidates belong.

The fact is that the democrats are avowedly pro abortion, and as long as they are, should discourage Christians from voting for them.

	09-05-2005 08:19									#56
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quote: If you'd actually read the story, by the way, you'd know that the pastor had only been there three years. The longest-attending parishioner booted had been there 45 years.

Which is meaningless. What matters is not your seniority, seniority can often conflict with devotion to God.

Christ is very clear with us, that those who convert just before death, are no less in the kingdom of God, than those who have served their entire lives. All recieve the same pardon.

	09-05-2005 08:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Boris: First of all, a church is allowed to take a stance on issues, without endorsing candidates. Without being able to see the story, it is difficult for me to say whether the pastor is endorsing a candidate or a position.

While the Pastor is backtracking now and claiming he never said this, (curiously enough not issuing the denial until well over a day after the initial story broke and talking to a lawyer) the original news reports and the claims of the 9 kicked out members were that they were expelled explicitly because they didn't vote for George Bush and refused to recant their "sin" and vote Republican in the future.

	09-05-2005 08:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The latest news I read said that, as a result of this affair, they may end up doing just that.

Well like I was saying, in the Baptist church it is the congregation that has the power to hire and fire the pastor, not the other way around. I would have thought that in a case in which a relatively new pastor locked horns with a large number of the most prominent members the pastor would likely get the boot, not the other way around.

	09-05-2005 08:38									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The latest news I read said that, as a result of this affair, they may end up doing just that.

Which is why its not as dramatic as the thread title states. Most churchs go through a lot of preachers and many times people come and go from churches based on who is currently preaching. I'm telling you people that there is a lot more going on in that church than just them being dems. Internal church politics can be vicious at times when you have different people having differing views on where that church should go, you are going to have people get pissed and leave or told to no longer go there. This especially happens when you have people that have been there a long time and a new preacher comes in and changes things. Some churches have very open doors to all comers and some are very much closed in their welcoming of outsiders. I have always loved the smaller churches over the larger ones but one of the downsides to a small or mid sized church is that they have a clique and if you don't conform than you really are never happy there. Not exactly how it's supposed to be but when your dealing with a human endevor which all churches are you are going to have the cliques and the social aspect.

	09-05-2005 08:41									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Well like I was saying, in the Baptist church it is the congregation that has the power to hire and fire the pastor, not the other way around. I would have thought that in a case in which a relatively new pastor locked horns with a large number of the most prominent members the pastor would likely get the boot, not the other way around.

Exactly why I said something else had to be going on before this. It doesn't take long at all after people become dissatisfied for them to get rid of a preacher. Sometimes its for little or no reason beyond them not being capatable with the congregation.