10-05-2005 06:28									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph If we the US could turn out 15,000 Sherman's a month, what do you think. We just shift production to the M-26. The Soviets had no Navy to challenge our ships carry supplies to Europe. Also the P-80 Jet Fighter was ready, but since the war in Europe was finnish, we did not send it over to fight. The Russian did not have a jet until after the war.

You don't get it. The problem is if you could keep a foothold long enough to get those new types in action.

Besides those that would reach in time would be so green that they still would have been target practice for the experienced soviet units.

Don't think that armor or firing capability is all that matters - especially against an opponent that don't care much about losses.

	10-05-2005 06:30									#152
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Yes, it's a nice piece, but it was not at the battlefield and therefore not relevant.

It was, just not in great numbers.

About 20 of them saw sum action and they did not lose when they did see action.

We had around 60 of them for Feb, March, April, and May 1945

	10-05-2005 06:30									#153
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In regards to a general theme in this thread, you can "not care" about losses only so much.

	10-05-2005 06:48									#154
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat You don't get it. The problem is if you could keep a foothold long enough to get those new types in action. Besides those that would reach in time would be so green that they still would have been target practice for the experienced soviet units. Don't think that armor or firing capability is all that matters - especially against an opponent that don't care much about losses.

I think it is you that cannot understand that all of those Carriers in the Pac would soon be surrounding Russia.

There is an old shipyard right here in Napa that was building a Cargo Vessel every single day. There is another SY in Richmond, Ca. just 25 miles down the road from here, doing the same.
My old shipyard could build a Destroyed in 17 days. It did and still holds the record.
We had production abilities that no one can compete with.

We could have Invaded Russia in the Pacific.

	10-05-2005 07:04									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Which is why they outnumbered the Krauts by 10 and 20 to 1 or more in AFV's

And they were getting bogged down at various places. Imagine if the odds were even.

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And I think the accepted figure is 25% of Axis forces were in the West, particularly after D Day.

If you are counting by number of divisions, yes. However the ones the Allies were facing were pulled out of the Eastern Front on R&R and rebuilding, and some second line types.

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The Western allies also achieved full motorisation of their forces, something neither the Germans nor the Russians ever achieved, or even got close to. Allied airpower would have made an awful mess of the Red Army's horse and rail based transport.

OTOH, full motorisation means highere requirement for supplies, and you have more of a problem with partisans interdictions. Plus, given the likelihood of UK dropping out, you have a serious problem.

	10-05-2005 07:12									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There are repeated statements that Soviet armor was better than US armor in 1945. That simply is not true. The US had the M26 Pershing at the end of the war. This tank took on the Tiger in and even up match, and was very effective against Soviet tanks in Korea. http://www.michiganhistorymagazine..../tanks/m26.html

Hm, your link doesn't say the Pershing was an even match with the Tiger. I don't think so either. The Pershing was better than the Sherman, but not up to snuff.

Besides, the Pather was better than the Tiger anyway.

	10-05-2005 07:12									#157
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quote: Plus, given the likelihood of UK dropping out, you have a serious problem.

Why would the UK have dropped out?
Just wondering

	10-05-2005 07:19									#158
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat You still seem to forget that soviet airforces are stronger than the german so there will not be the air superiority they was used to.

The Soviets were able to produce planes that could go toe to toe with the Germans only because the US supplied them with high octane fuel. Without that high octane fuel Russian planes would suffer a 20% loss in performance. You'd think they would have analyzed the gasoline and copied it, the secret ingredient was lead, but apparently they didn't and had to be supplied by the US until the end of the war.

	10-05-2005 08:22									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Besides, the Pather was better than the Tiger anyway.

Pather nostrum regnum veniat

	10-05-2005 08:30									#160
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Face it guys, the Soviet army progressed faster against the bulk of the Wehrmacht than the Allies did against old bastards and prepubescent Kucis that amounted to 25% of the German strength.

	10-05-2005 08:31									#161
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Yeah, but they had 4 years while we allowed ourselves just 11 months.

	10-05-2005 08:40									#162
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The Sovs also had 'General Winter' and mud on their sides. The T34 had the wide tracks compared to German and other westerm tanks. This was a big advantage in undeveloped Soviet territory, but was of no help in europe where roads were everywhere and mud was not.

	10-05-2005 08:40									#163
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Nice try, but I'm talking about the counter-offensives that started in 1944 at Korsun, Ukraine, and ended in Berlin 14 months later.

You know, the Soviets were overwhelmed by the initial German blitz, just like the British were when they first learned what was a Panzer regiment in Benghazi.

They had as much time as the Allies to learn; the difference is the enemy was right there. While the Americans were trying to figure out how to lose less than 20 Shermans on a single Panther coming out of a bush, the Soviets drove 1500km through Eastern Europe.

	10-05-2005 08:41									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The Sovs also had 'General Winter' and mud on their sides. The T34 had the wide tracks compared to German and other westerm tanks. This was a big advantage in undeveloped Soviet territory, but was of no help in europe where roads were everywhere and mud was not.

dude, decide: either the strat bombers level the transport networks, or they don't.

	10-05-2005 08:43									#165
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Rail lines and bridges, sure... Rail lines behind Sov lines, not ours. Bridges used to supply Sov forces, not western.

	10-05-2005 08:52									#166
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Also, the strategic bombers would have taken out that huge factory in the east that turned out 50 T34s a day...

The Germans could never reach it but the allies certainly could, flying from the south.

	10-05-2005 08:56									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Rail lines and bridges, sure... Rail lines behind Sov lines, not ours. Bridges used to supply Sov forces, not western.

Which rail lines?

	10-05-2005 08:57									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Also, the strategic bombers would have taken out that huge factory in the east that turned out 50 T34s a day... The Germans could never reach it but the allies certainly could, flying from the south.

Yes, and the Soviets would have massed everything they have and spearheaded towards Antwerp. Bla bla.

	10-05-2005 08:57									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph It was, just not in great numbers. About 20 of them saw sum action and they did not lose when they did see action. We had around 60 of them for Feb, March, April, and May 1945

Actually 310 saw action of 1436 produced before June 1945. Total production in 1945 was 2000, but that of course was merely the winding down of production that had just begun. The army presumed that heavy tanks would not be needed for the campaigns planned in Japan in late 1945.

	10-05-2005 09:05									#170
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Antwerp was a long way away and the Soviet armies had to stop every hundred miles to bring up supplies for the next push. These stops could last months. During the first of these stops the allied tank busting tactical air would have done the same thing to Sov armor they did to the German at the Bulge.

Also, the allies had sticky bombs don't forget.

	10-05-2005 09:13									#171
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The Soviets would have required an extra long rest period to subjugate eastern germany.

How long was the Red Army's rest period at the gates of Warsaw? Three or four months?

I wonder, Stalin waited 3 years befor precipitating the Berlin crisis. Perhaps that was how long it took to rebuild his Army and his infrastructure sufficiently enough provide a decent chance of winning the conflict he hoped to goad the western allies into starting.

	10-05-2005 09:39									#172
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I think I nailed 'em with the sticky bombs.

	10-05-2005 09:58									#173
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quote: War between the western allies and the Sovs in '45. Who wins?

Albert Einstein is proven right.

	10-05-2005 10:03									#174
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'45

Only bombs were American bombs. Also, we're postulating that those bombs would not be used. Why? Because then the Sovs would lose very quickly, and we would have nothing to BS about.

	10-05-2005 11:25									#175
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Yes, it's a nice piece, but it was not at the battlefield and therefore not relevant.

Yes it was. It was used by the US from 1945. It was deployed in Europe.

	10-05-2005 11:29									#176
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat You don't get it. The problem is if you could keep a foothold long enough to get those new types in action. Besides those that would reach in time would be so green that they still would have been target practice for the experienced soviet units. Don't think that armor or firing capability is all that matters - especially against an opponent that don't care much about losses.

BlackCat, they were deployed already.

	10-05-2005 11:33									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Hm, your link doesn't say the Pershing was an even match with the Tiger. I don't think so either. The Pershing was better than the Sherman, but not up to snuff. Besides, the Pather was better than the Tiger anyway.

Well, as Joseph said, the US tank saw action against German armor and scored victories 1 on 1. We took no losses, it appears. The tank might have been just as good if not better than the German tanks, and clearly equal or better than the Russian.

It is also true that our war production was prodigious. We could have equiped all armored units in Europe in months with the new tank. Once that was done, the Sov's would have had a really hard time stopping us.

	10-05-2005 11:59									#178
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Yes, it's a nice piece, but it was not at the battlefield and therefore not relevant.

They weren't yet common, but they were on the field. My uncle drove one across Remagen bridge during the battle there.

	10-05-2005 12:03									#179
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Uncle Sikander

Panzer busting American tank US drove across the bridge at Remagen...

http://www.battletanks.com/m26_pershing.htm

USA! USA! USA!

Last edited by Lancer on 10-05-2005 at 12:13

	10-05-2005 13:22									#180
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat You still seem to forget that soviet airforces are stronger than the german so there will not be the air superiority they was used to.

No, I don't forget. I disagree.

Having a stronger airforce than the Germans had in 1945 doesn't say much. The Luftwaffe had been wiped out; even Denmark had a stronger airforce than the Germans in may 1945!

The facts are that the Russians would be constantly bombed, while the Allies would ship in tons and tons of equipment and men without any danger. The Allies already had this flow going since June 1944... It's like ship chaining in Civ 2...

My other point is that the US would have lots of equipment to ship due to their industrial capacity, which in addition was unharmed by the war... The Russians didn't have the same capacity and their economy had been inflicted heavy damage...

Carolus