26-05-2005 06:57									#31
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50: YES! Hanging Gardens in Hlobane. Ibaba (13) founded near Ulundi on wheat. I call myself an ICS player, and this is my only size one city ! But I am now planning another growth spurt, while aiming for maps, lit, phil, poly and mono. I will also try to move stacked units into ST's position by land or sea, and build an embassy to find out what's going on.

ST has a warrior two squares from Intombe. I block it with one of mine, but he has probably already seen the city. I have another dip coming, and can probably bribe this warrior. Maybe incidents like this will become common soon. For example, I have a warrior exploring the Cheb area from the East, which could also bump into a city and be quickly bribed.

I finally bribe the warrior in the south this turn (23g), and will start moving a stack towards Hradec from the West. By messing with the bribing formula and an old "nearest city" report, I think ST's capitol is near (38,38). Kladno should be a few squares NNE of that, and Slany a few squares SE of Kladno.

51:

Those of you looking for a little violence may get your wish. I moved a warrior (Lonely Guy, I guess) onto plains near Lonsim and met an American warrior. I think this is ST's first chance to attack at roughly 50-50 odds, and I am interested to see if he will do it.

	27-05-2005 03:58									#32
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Nice catch (HG)! That should ease current and potential happiness problems for a while.

I wonder what TCO would say about this? Pyramids over HG, right?

Carolus

	27-05-2005 08:02									#33
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Tx, Carolus. Maybe TCO knows something we don't, but I definitely prefer HG at Deity level, and have never needed it more than I did in this game. In fact, I am wondering how ST will manage without it.

52: Well, he did not attack Lonely Guy. But he did report the brutal murder of a Zulu warrior exploring the surprisingly large peninsula east of Isand (see the minimap below). This warrior just noticed that a hut was missing, so it should have been on alert.

I am happy with my position, but my over-sized cities need to make settlers soon, and most of them are low on shields. At the same time, I have to deal with at least 3 American warriors trying to scout my lands. One of those is at 35,9 (two diagonal moves west of Ibaba) - I don't know why it is visible to me.

53: Osizi (14) founded near Ngome and a whale.

Mpondo is making trouble again. It just started rioting at size 2, the same turn a I switched a horse for a warrior. So, I cannot empty the city this turn. Also, I cannot employ an Elvis because there is no food in the box. I will make a settler in this city asap, and get it back to size one where it belongs.

My little gang in the S.W. is now at 23,41 - nearest to Kutna Hora. I hope my dip can get into such a city for an embassy or free tech. Then, the boat I have planned for Cheb may carry military units instead of a dip.

Here's an updated mini-map. I certainly don't control all the green area yet, but I may grab 2/3 of the map if ST doesn't act pretty soon. For example, he may be able to push into the central area north of his homeland and take a couple of my cities. I cannot do too much militarily until I finish my growth spurt and get some better tech.

Attachment: mini53a.jpg
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Last edited by Peaster on 27-05-2005 at 08:10

	28-05-2005 19:53									#34
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54: What can I do about the Mpondo riot ? I don't have enough units for two militia plus the stack on the mountain, and the city already has some support problems. Elvis = instant starvation. So, I removed my horseman as planned. Then I realized ST could easily have a trireme just out of sight, carrying a warrior to take my empty size two city [Much gnashing of teeth].
This kind of problem may become common as my civ grows, so I need to find a decent solution.

See screenshot below.

55: Map Making -> Literacy. If ST doesn't get Literacy soon [I should know from the Literacy Stat on the Demo screen] then I'll race for Phil. But I have set taxes to 70 this turn to pay for some unexpected rushes, and to keep enough gold on hand to afford bribes.

Proud day for the Zulus !!! This turn, the top five cities were all green. We also reached 500,000 population.

My units return to Mpondo (ST did not take it, but a new warrior is seen approaching from the West and I do not want to give him another chance, if he has boats). I spend 54g to rush a Settler, even though there aren't any great sites nearby. Down to 33g.

ST's warriors are harassing several of my neighborhoods. Not really dangerous, but I'd prefer he didn't actually see my cities + terrain, and that he not establish any stacks on critical mountains.

I plan to have a boat and dip ready to sail from Zimbabwe in about 3 turns, headed to Cheb to make an embassy. I am eager to know ST's techs, gold, and number of cities. To me, this kind of info is priceless.

A strange phenomenon down south - as my little band heads due east, the nearest city reports have changed back and forth from Kutna Hora to Benesov back to Kutna Hora. This seems impossible with normal geometry. Something is crazy there, or maybe it's me.

I am also curious where Stribro might be. I have a few units running loose between Intombe and Cheb, but I haven't managed to bump into any new cities.

Here's a shot of Mpondo just before 55AD.

Attachment: turn55.jpg
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	29-05-2005 22:40									#35
	Remove this text

56: My warrior finds an unexpected whale near Tugela. I was sloppy with my hut/specials map, I guess. I have quit updating my paper maps, since there seem to be few huts left.

The warrior in the screenshot approached Mpondo, so I bribed it for 30g. ST has a 2nd one nearby and could have stacked them, so I assume he doesn't mind such bribes. I think a warrior is worth about 20g, which means I'll pay up to 40g for a bribe (20g to remove it from ST and 20g to have it for myself). This little drama will probably repeat a few times - the warrior gets good map info, but is soon bribed (or killed). AFAIK this is a fairly even deal for both sides. But I am trying to scout ST's position mainly with stacked units.

57: New trireme in Zimbabwe. It carries a dip and a vet archer to the north and soon finds land to the west, across the sea! And it sees American units in a stack there, with a phalanx on top! This is a mystery -

1) The land is part of the main continent (1), but I can't tell if it connects via the N.E. near Cheb, or via the peninsula east of Isand. Not both, or it would disconnect the main ocean (also 1).

2) Why would ST have a phalanx there... so close to Zimbabwe? AFAIK you can't get a phalanx from a hut, and it is a strange unit to use for exploring. So, I suppose he is planning an attack by sea, with boats that he has been hiding from me, or that he has not yet built.

But AFAIK ST doesn't have any cities nearby - even Cheb is a pretty long walk. And if he has boats, why hasn't he grabbed Mpondo yet? So, I am unsure what to think, but I will increase defense spending for the capitol a bit.

58: Amati (15) near Tugela. My gold is back up to 95 before some small rushes, so I lower taxes and go for Phil (I am almost halfway to Lit).

ST's phalanx stack retreated one square to the west. My boat continues to the N.E. to harass the Cheb area, rescue my stranded stack, and probably make an embassy. But my gang in the south (dip, w, w, ph) must be pretty close to ST's capitol now, so I may make the embassy there, instead.

I have lured a warrior towards my dip, for bribing next turn, and am trying the same trick in 2 other locations. I placed a settler on a hill next to the first one, which ST may attack. But he'd have rather low odds, I think, so this reaction would probably just save me some gold.

I hope that ST cannot attack my capitol for a few more turns, while I spit out some settlers, and regain my balance after making HG. Soon, I'll have a vet archer and a second horse there, plus the option to rush a dip if needed. My trireme may return to threaten any loaded boats. ST might still be able to seize a mountain or two, but I doubt he could take a city quickly without at least 8 good units in the area. His window of opportunity will shrink further if I have about 8 turns, for a few pike men or ellies.

	30-05-2005 02:45									#36
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This position (after Zulu 59AD) may be critical. My boat should be invisible to ST , and the Cheb flag is down. If he defends Cheb, but does not sink my boat, I can probably occupy the gold mountain with the dip + archer on board.

My boat and my phlalanx stack are nearest to "Stribro" which must be just east of the gold square. But even when my units were at 16,14 (just east of ST's stack) they were nearest to Stribro, which doesn't seem possible. Can anyone guess where that city could be?

Attachment: cheb59.jpg
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	31-05-2005 09:47									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

59: Cheb is empty, but is out of reach of my boat. I moved closer, where I thought it would not be visible, but later I found Stribro on a nearby hill, so ST saw me first and guarded Cheb, and it will not be free.

60: Zungu (16) south of the homeland near a whale. Another warrior is bribed. A warrior in my southern gang spots a loaded American boat offshore!!
Well, now I know he has mapmaking. The boat is three squares from Mpondo. If it contains decent units, they will take a coastal mountain square and Mpondo may fall in 2 turns. Fortunately, my Mpondo settler is near an OK site, so I have just enough time to build there and rehome 3 Mpondo units before that city falls.

My Archer and dip land on the gold between Cheb and Stribro, as planned. Since his cities are on hills, I probably will not attack with the Archer unless I am desperate.

Two bribed warriors cost about 55g and my reserves are low again. But I feel pretty safe near Lonsim and Ngome now.

61: Naples (17) Americans embark near Mpondo, as expected, with a stack on a coastal mountain, topped by a phalanx. I re-home 3-4 Mpondo units this turn in Naples to prepare for the worst. An unexpected stack also appears on a mountain near (but not adjacent to) Hlobane(HG) and Umtata, a sign of trouble ahead.

I finish my Cheb plan by creating an embassy, and replacing the dip by a warrior from my boat to prevent bribery. The boat will return with a phalanx. This prevents bribery along the coast, and the phalanx seems to be needed more at home anyway. NEW INFO:

The Americans have only about 8 techs, but this includes math and maps. Apparently, ST will attack mainly with phalanx/catapult stacks delivered by boats to mountains or hills near my cities. I assume this is what's happening at Mpondo and Hlobane. I will not need Feudalism/pikemen for a long time, but desperately need some units to attack stacks that venture off the mountains.

They have only 16g, so I have little fear of bribery for a few turns. They have 11 cities; maybe 1-2 more than I guessed.

After I informed ST of this embassy, he realized he should have reported one he made in Mpondo in 43AD !! This news was hard to take. I did not think ST would launch a major attack without building an embassy first [to check out my tech and gold reserves, etc]. And I assumed (probably correctly) that he would build one soon after getting his first boat. So, an invasion by sea seemed especially unlikely for many turns. Suddenly, I am facing at least two of them.

All this bad news spoils the game a little for me, but it relieves any embarrassment I felt about my good luck with huts. If ST doesn't wipe me out, it might even make the game more interesting. If I can hang on to HG, I think I will keep the advantage, but if I lose HG, or my capitol, my game could fall apart. I have posted a settler in Hlobane to pump up the city size, if necessary, and am scurrying to post my units effectively. I have to expect a boat from the West too, perhaps near Zimbabwe. I assume this invasion has been planned for at least 20 turns, meaning 1-2 more boatloads of ph/cat stacks are already on the way.

Suddenly gold is very important, so I postpone bribing another trapped warrior, and keep taxes at 70. I rush a phalanx in Hlobane and am down to about 40g. No gold is wasted on the doomed city of Mpondo.

The good news is that my growth spurt is kicking in, with 3 new cities online in 2 turns. So, I can afford to lose a few minor cities like Mpondo (but not my homeland). Also, my southern gang may be able to steal a tech within about 3 turns. Math would greatly ease my defense (catapults vs catapults) and with masonry, I might be able to rush build walls in Hlobane.

	02-06-2005 05:31									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What are the odds of a catapult winning against a fortified phalanx on mountain? (Not that you have much choice)

Carolus

	02-06-2005 06:38									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Huh? Do we have that situation in our game ? I don't have any catapults and IIRC my phalanges are not on mountains. Maybe you refer to catapults in Cheb vs my archer there???

	03-06-2005 04:21									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Peaster The Americans have only about 8 techs, but this includes math and maps. Apparently, ST will attack mainly with phalanx/catapult stacks delivered by boats to mountains or hills near my cities. I assume this is what's happening at Mpondo and Hlobane.

This quote implies that you expect ST to put stacks of phalanxes and cats on mountains, no?

quote: Originally posted by Peaster I have to expect a boat from the West too, perhaps near Zimbabwe. I assume this invasion has been planned for at least 20 turns, meaning 1-2 more boatloads of ph/cat stacks are already on the way.

Ditto (same remark as the previous one).

quote: Originally posted by Peaster I rush a phalanx in Hlobane and am down to about 40g.

This implies that you have phalanxes.

quote: Originally posted by Peaster Math would greatly ease my defense (catapults vs catapults) and with masonry, I might be able to rush build walls in Hlobane.

This implies that you want mathematics and get cats to attack ST's stacks, hence my question about the odds of a cat winning against a phalanx in mountains. If ST attacks you with a cat, the strongest unit defends and a phalanx is stronger than a cat, no?

So how could a cat defend against a cat as you say in the quote above -> I figured you meant your cat attacking a ST phalanx (preventive strike) -> tough fight if the phalanx is stationed in mountains -> wanted to know your estimation of winning such a fight -> hence my question.

Maybe I miss something?

Carolus

	03-06-2005 08:21									#41
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Oooh! Well, I think the cat would have pretty poor odds. Since I don't understand the combat formula, I couldn't say exactly. My plan was to place cats in key cities such as Hlobane and Zimbabwe (which are not adjacent to mountains) to deter ST from attacking them with cats.

I hope to seize the mountain squares adjacent to my cities before ST can do so. There are not many in my homeland. When I lose such a mountain, I must expect to lose the city (as I lost Mpondo).

But ST has attacked quicker than expected, so now I am scrambling to protect Hlobane, which he will probably attack with a catapult next turn. He has been too busy to play for a couple of days now - what bad time for the game to stall! I think my best chance to save the city [and HG] is to attack the cat/phalanx stack with every horseman/etc I've got before it can fortify.

Apparently, ST did bring in a boat from the West, as predicted. In 62AD, a stack topped by a chariot appeared near my capitol, but I am throwing warriors out, to stall it on grass until I can attack it with a spare horse or two.

If ST has more units in these stacks, or nearby, or if his cat/phal are vets, I am probably in real trouble. If I can stall him long enough to steal math or finish phil/poly, then I can probably defend.

	06-06-2005 18:28									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Oooh! Well, I think the cat would have pretty poor odds.

That's my guess to.

quote: Originally posted by Peaster My plan was to place cats in key cities such as Hlobane and Zimbabwe (which are not adjacent to mountains) to deter ST from attacking them with cats.

Oh, I see!

BTW, I think I have an idea of "robbing" ST of HG should the city be in danger, but I must hold my peace (for now)...

Carolus

	06-06-2005 18:44									#43
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I have 3 units in the city, so he might raze it, but cannot capture it. Losing HG would cause massive rioting in my approx 18 cities and it would probably take the joy out of the game for me.

But if ST doesn't have any unseen strengths, I have about a 75 per cent chance to hold Hlobane. I have about a 50-50 chance to destroy his stack next turn with 3 horses (and with my vet archer, if ST lets it live, to attack the city instead). Also, there's a decent chance that his cat will be lost [or critically wounded] in his attack, giving me valuable time to react.

But he has not played for a week. What has happened to him?

	07-06-2005 15:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster But he has not played for a week. What has happened to him?

Well... At least one handle that doesn't need some explaining!

Carolus

	08-06-2005 06:57									#45
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While ST is busy insulating his bridge (don't ask), here is what we are waiting on - not very patiently. You probably know the situation better than I do, if ST's thread is up to date, but to me, this is the critical moment in the game.

I think both his stacks contain an unfortified phalanx, and hopefully there are only two units in each. Hlobane contains an unfortified phalanx and 2 warriors. I have three horsemen nearby. One is a vet, as is the archer. My other units are rookie warriors, one per city, just holding the flags up.

I could not move the archer into Hlobane from Bapedi as planned, because then it is first defender and the catapult kills it. Now ST has a tough choice (I hope) - to attack the archer on a hill or to attack the city.

If he has a dip, he has a terrifying third option, but in that case, I think he would have played by now! Also, he is too poor to bribe the archer without selling things.

My warriors are stalling the chariot stack. I had planned to bring a horse into this arena in 62AD, but decided Hlobane (HG) was more urgent.

ST has played part of his 62AD turn and reports that he attacked my trireme (two squares north of the chariot) but that it survived. So, I should be able to land a phalanx near the chariot next turn to stall it some more.

I think it's OK to comment on this position as long as you don't reveal anything about ST's game.

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	08-06-2005 15:37									#46
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What are you producing in those 5 visible cities (one barely, at the bottom of the screenshot) and how many turns until whatever it is, is completed?

Carolus

	08-06-2005 17:33									#47
	Remove this text

They have zero shields in the box, because I rushed units in 61AD. In 62AD I had just built the vet archer and had no shields in Bapedi (my barracks city), so I disbanded a warrior there and rushed a vet horse to appear in 63AD (included in the 3 horses I reported).
I am making 45g/t from taxes, so I can afford to repeat this trick in an emergency.

There is an empty coastal city a few squares south along a river that has 10 shields towards a horse (or dip/phal/etc). Since ST has boats on this inland sea, the city is very vulnerable and may keep its horse. I have 2 warriors coming back from sentry duty to help out.

I do not have a dip in the area, but ST doesn't know that. So, he feels he has to keep his units stacked. For example, he might kill my 2 warriors with his chariot and then grab the hill with a phalanx - but I don't think he will dare it.

But I didn't really think he'd move his stack next to Hlobane either. If Bapedi had not rioted in approx 60AD, a vet archer could have been in place to ambush that stack.

	09-06-2005 04:11									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok, let's see if I got this straight...

Zimbabwe, Bapedi, and Intombe all have a non-vet warrior as defender (and the barely visible city as well?)?

Hlobane has one phalanx and two warriors; the phalanx is not fortified (but will be when you play the next turn).

What about the 3 horsemen? Where can you bring them in the next turn? Will they all be able to attack the stack outside Hlobane next turn and with full strength?

I also wonder about the food box in Hlobane; how many turns to size 4?

First, about the "chariot stack". If it contains two units, then it's not an immediate (critical) problem IMHO. If it contains a phalanx, the stack is pinned down by ZOC. If it contains a diplo, you will notice as the stack will move (ignoring ZOC). But in that case you'll know it's weak on defense and very vulnerable.

The problem is that it may potentially contain more than two units (as you say), for example diplo, chariot, phalanx and others. That will allow the stack to move and still have decent defense. The crux is that you will not be able (I guess?) to distinguish this case from the two-stack case (chariot and diplo) above...

About the Hlobane stack: if it's a two-unit stack and one is a diplo, then the archer will probably change sides and be stacked (unfortified) with the cat. Then you have 3 (?) horsemen against a vet archer on jungle with river (right?)...

If you still have the archer next turn, then I would draw the conclusion that there is no diplo in the stack, but probably a phalanx.

It seems that ST:s choice then is his cat against i) the archer on mountains or ii) against best defender in Hlobane. I've never been good at calculating battle odds... Hlobane is the big prize here... It also matters what are his possibilities of bringing in more troops (i.e. can he afford to wait?)...

That was if there's two units in the stack. If there are more it becomes more difficult to predict what will happen (no kidding!)...

Not much, but I must be careful not to give anything away...

Carolus

Last edited by Carolus Rex on 09-06-2005 at 04:16

	09-06-2005 05:25									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Ok, let's see if I got this straight...

Yes, mostly....

quote: Zimbabwe, Bapedi, and Intombe all have a non-vet warrior as defender (and the barely visible city as well?)? Hlobane has one phalanx and two warriors; the phalanx is not fortified (but will be when you play the next turn). What about the 3 horsemen? Where can you bring them in the next turn? Will they all be able to attack the stack outside Hlobane next turn and with full strength?

All correct except that Bapedi contains a horse (and a warrior) and it will make a vet horse next turn. The third horse is in the half-visible city. So yes, all 3 can attack at full strength.

quote: I also wonder about the food box in Hlobane; how many turns to size 4?

IIRC about 10 turns. I just disbanded a settler there to pump it up from size 2, and I think the box is about half full.

quote: First, about the "chariot stack". If it contains two units, then it's not an immediate (critical) problem IMHO. If it contains a phalanx, the stack is pinned down by ZOC. If it contains a diplo, you will notice as the stack will move (ignoring ZOC). But in that case you'll know it's weak on defense and very vulnerable. The problem is that it may potentially contain more than two units (as you say), for example diplo, chariot, phalanx and others. That will allow the stack to move and still have decent defense. The crux is that you will not be able (I guess?) to distinguish this case from the two-stack case (chariot and diplo) above... About the Hlobane stack: if it's a two-unit stack and one is a diplo, then the archer will probably change sides and be stacked (unfortified) with the cat. Then you have 3 (?) horsemen against a vet archer on jungle with river (right?)...

I refuse to deal with the possibility that the stacks have more than 2 units each.

ST should have reported his embassy, which would have given me important danger signals - that he knew my civ and that he had boats back in 43AD. I am really tempted to just stop the game over this. But if the surprise attack is not overwhelming, and the situation is manageable, I will play on. I guess I draw the line, between manageable and not, at 2 units per stack. This seems the most likely situation, since triremes carry two units each, and moving large stacks around is pretty risky.

I saw a phalanx in the cat stack when it was on the mountain. I also saw a phalanx just across the sea from Zimbabwe, and suspect the chariot stack contains that phalanx and nothing else.

quote: If you still have the archer next turn, then I would draw the conclusion that there is no diplo in the stack, but probably a phalanx. It seems that ST:s choice then is his cat against i) the archer on mountains or ii) against best defender in Hlobane. I've never been good at calculating battle odds... Hlobane is the big prize here... It also matters what are his possibilities of bringing in more troops (i.e. can he afford to wait?)...

I agree about i) and ii). My phalanx would lose against his cat, but with my archer still alive, I can probably destroy his stack in 63AD. So, I think he should attack my archer, and hope my 3 horses are not enough.

He only has about 30 gold (before taxes and selling) but he probably needs over 150g to bribe my archer because it is very close to my capitol. If he CAN bribe it, I guess Hlobane is lost.

I doubt he is going to wait, after taking such a risk to get close to Hlobane, and alerting me to his attack. He may attack in another area, but as you said, Hlobane is the big prize.

quote: That was if there's two units in the stack. If there are more it becomes more difficult to predict what will happen (no kidding!)... Not much, but I must be careful not to give anything away... Carolus

Thanks!

	09-06-2005 12:30									#50
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Peaster I refuse to deal with the possibility that the stacks have more than 2 units each.

Heh, heh!

quote: Originally posted by Peaster ST should have reported his embassy, which would have given me important danger signals - that he knew my civ and that he had boats back in 43AD. I am really tempted to just stop the game over this.

C'mon, this is an interesting game and fun to watch! I forbid you to do such a thing! Er, please?

quote: Originally posted by Peaster But if the surprise attack is not overwhelming, and the situation is manageable, I will play on. I guess I draw the line, between manageable and not, at 2 units per stack.

Let's hope for 2 units per stack then!

quote: Originally posted by Peaster I agree about i) and ii). My phalanx would lose against his cat, but with my archer still alive, I can probably destroy his stack in 63AD. So, I think he should attack my archer, and hope my 3 horses are not enough.

Fair enough.

Carolus

	10-06-2005 21:11									#51
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quote: C'mon, this is an interesting game and fun to watch! I forbid you to do such a thing! Er, please?

Thanks for your interest. I really do appreciate your posts. The game was fun for me until 61AD, but it has gone downhill fast in the last 10 days. After 61AD, I was hoping to verify quickly that the embassy error was just a little bump in the road, but cannot do so until ST plays on.

He has not offered a good reason for stopping play at the most critical point of the game. He has been a good sport so far, but I wonder if he is actually trying to annoy me. Apparently that stuff has happened in other duels.

If this Fast PBEM idea is going to work, we need some kind of limit on time per turn, and we may also need a referee to sort out occasional conflicts and errors. As it is, my only option may be to walk away.

You can pass all this on to ST if you think it would help. Maybe you have a better idea of what's going on than I do. I will tell him myself if there is no action soon.

	12-06-2005 02:34									#52
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Wow, it really seems to get to you! In that case, why not e-mail him?

I'm used to wait 3 months between turns in PBEM, so this is still a duel in my book!

BTW, I don't know anything more than you do (unless he has posted today in his thread, which I will check now).

Carolus

	12-06-2005 03:42									#53
	Support Apolyton

Yes, it does get to me. I have taken Civ2 pretty seriously for the last year or so, and I know ST does too. I have probably put 50+ hours into this PBEM and would hate to see it wasted (though, as I said, it has been fun most of the time).

In a way, I admire your patience, waiting 3 months between moves. But I would not enjoy that myself, and I thought it would not happen in this game. I have emailed him several times over the last 1-2 weeks, asking "Is there a problem?", etc, with various vague answers. I suggested taking a long break after the Hlobane battle. But I think he just doesn't want to move for some reason.

	18-06-2005 03:33									#54
	Put an end to popups!

We have movement.... I repeat ... we have movement....

62: This ugly turn is described above. I placed my vet archer in plain view next to ST's cat, giving him a choice to attack that, or the city. He took two weeks, I got irritated, stopped the game prematurely, etc, etc. Finally he attacked the city, killing my unfortified phalanx, and reducing Hlobane to size 2 - but allowing a counterattack.

I am pushing some weak units and dips towards his homeland, hoping to steal his techs, and maybe distract him a little from his attack. But he knows I do not have the tech for decent military units.

63: Cremona (19) I miscalculated in Bapedi, by rushing a horse while reducing shield production to zero (for a few extra arrows). When the horse arrived, it created a shield deficit, and the AI disbanded my Archer near Cheb. I kicked myself a few times over this, but at least it didn't affect the Hlobane arena much.

I attacked his cat stack with my vet Archer and lost, then attacked with a vet horse and lost again. His phalanx was wounded badly by then, so my next horse defeated his cat and he lost 3 units - I assume the third was a dip (?).

ST's chariot narrowly defeated my warrior, which was blocking him on the hill. Then he moved onto the hill himself, past my ZOC, splitting his units into TWO stacks. Arrrgh. Well, one unit must be a dip and I see a phalanx and wounded chariot. What is the 4th unit? I suppose it is not a cat, or he would have used that instead of the chariot. If it is a phalanx, dip, or even an archer, it is not too dangerous. Of course, there could even be a 5th or 6th unit there, but I am only human and can't plan vs all that.

ST lost a sea battle with my trireme, which now limps towards the nearest port, Zimbabwe, carrying a phalanx. I am returning a warrior to the Hlobane area, and it spots a loaded blue trireme in the inland sea...more trouble coming. My new port city of Zunge is nearby, empty and undefendable, but I suppose ST hasn't spotted it yet, and he is probably focused entirely on Hlobane anyway.

I cannot defend everything, and decide to sacrifice Zunge or even Intombe (a great size 3 city) if necessary, to save Hlobane. I will not make any new units in 64AD, but will make 3 horses (or phalanges) and a vet archer in 65AD, and hope that will be enough. The horses will not be vets, so they won't help much.

64: My dip steals tech from Kutna Hora - Masonry. I hoped for Math, but somehow expected this. At least I can build walls now. But I have only 100 gold - not enough for rushing. Since ST has at least one dip near Hlobane (to sabotage my walls), I really should build a courthouse first, while saving up more gold. But Hlobane might not be around long enough for that.

ST had no attacks last turn, but gathered his units onto the hill N.W of Hlobane, presumably for an attack in 64AD or 65AD. He also unloaded another stack onto the mountains S.E of the city, with a phalanx on top.

I move a returning warrior onto an adjacent mountain, freezing this new stack with ZOC. If the second unit in the stack is a cat, I have slowed him down a little. If the other unit is a dip, the stack is not very dangerous. If there are 3 units, I may be in big trouble.

The 4-stack to the NE is now pretty scary. The 4th unit could be a chariot, archer or cat. It is hard to pick the best defense without knowing what's there. I eventually decided that rushing a vet archer was not enough.

I have a dip from Lonsim close to where Slany should be. I take a chance and move the dip into a ring of American troops and BINGO! Slany is there (though not exactly where I thought). My dip steals math - I have gotten a little break. Now I can rush a vet cat for 88g, with solid hopes to put it in Hlobane in 65AD.

I am down to 13g with few shields in my boxes, and all my hopes are based on my new vet cat. Basically, ST now has just 2 turns to get past my blockades and raze The City. This should be difficult unless he has more hidden resources, such as a second chariot in his 4-stack, or 3 units in the S.E. stack.

I must decide soon whether to continue. ST's attack has been stronger than expected, but if there are no disasters in 64-65AD, I will probably play on.

Screenshot after my 64AD turn. Can ST hurt Hlobane before I can move my cat there from Bapedi? Or, will he diplo-guide his stack south (into a little trap) allowing my new cat to sneak attack from Bapedi in 65AD ?

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	22-06-2005 10:04									#55
	Full PM-box? Change here!

From the previous screenshot, ST 's cat killed my warrior, and he built a city on the hill where you see
his wounded chariot. I forget what he named it, but I will call it "Klat".

This 65-68AD log is written after 68AD, partly from memory. It may have small errors.

65: ST has a new stack at Intombe, which contains only 1-2 warriors, so it may be lost. I decide to place a cat + phalanx stack next to Klat, to raze it in 66AD. I fear it has 1-2 chariots, one wounded. I cover my stack with a warrior and hope he won't attack it (since he didn't last time). But the square has river + swamp, so my phalanx is a decent defender there.

It was safer to put the cat in Hlobane (not sure which was objectively better).

66: ST moves stacks next to Hlobane from two sides. I don't know which is more dangerous, but my cat near Klat is adjacent to the northern one only, so it kills it. ST gets a free shot with his cat at size 2 Hlobane, defended by a warrior and a horse. If he cannot attack with a second unit, Holbane has enough food to grow back in 67ad. But almost any 2nd attack razes the city. I am afraid ST might even attack with his vet phalanx. I place a line of 3 stacks between Klat and Hlobane to block his chariot(s). I wouldn't need to stack, except he may have a dip in Klat instead of a second chariot.

I could rush a vet cat in Bapedi, but I decide to rush a rookie cat in Hlobane instead.

67: Arrgh! ST's chariot(s) in Klat destroy 2
stacks, killing 3 warriors, a phalanx, and a horse. I was hoping he had only one wounded chariot there. His cat kills a warrior in Hlobane and an archer kills a warrior in Intombe. His dip steals currency from Intombe. He has a new stack near Zungu, which is undefended (I wonder why he didn't just take it?).

However, my rushed cat in Hlobane takes out his cat stack before his phalanx can fortify. I decide that Klat can wait, because its chariot(s) are surely wounded (I can even see one in the city), Hlobane is back to size 2, and I will have 2 more cats next turn to help out (another rushed in Bapedi, using 1 disbanded warrior there).

I cannot really help Intombe, and must hope his archer has trouble with my fortified warriors on a river.

68: ST razed Zungu, as expected, so I have no port on the Mpondo Sea. ST has a new stack at my beloved colony of Lonsim, and will probably take it next turn. This will wipe out Zulu influence in the southeast for a long time and allow American expansion into that area.

The good news: I now have 3 cats near Hlobane. Two of them raze Klat before it can do more harm. ST did not attack Intombe last turn, so I suppose his archer is wounded. The Klat victory frees a phalanx to go there, and I hope to move in 1-2 cats too, before the archer attacks again. ST's Zungu stack is still a threat, but I probably have enough cats now to defend. IMO, the good news finally outweighs the bad.

This is the first turn since about 62AD that Hlobane and HG seem safe. I can relax a little, and make some long-term plans.

1) Hlobane will start building walls, and I will hold 100g+ on reserve for rushing them if needed. It will build a courthouse first, to delay sabotage by dips. Bapedi is making a vet phalanx for the city. The capitol city of Zimbabwe will also get some attention ASAP.

2) I will continue growth up to about 25-30 cities (I now have 18 to ST's 12, after he takes Lonsim). I expect the Americans can't go much over 12 without a happiness wonder, such as Mike's, which I want to delay. When I get Phil in about 4 turns, I will probably not choose Poly, as planned, since ST might steal it, getting closer to monotheism. I may take feudalism or maybe construction or seafaring (suggestions??). After 25-30 cities, I will think about another Wonder.

3) I want to control the seas, especially near Zimbabwe. I need at least 2-3 triremes and a dip there. Maybe I can send some cats to Cheb when my homeland seems safer. Then I may try for the inland sea, which ST has used so well.

Etc: I want to deter more easy attacks on my fringe cities (eg Zungu, Lonsim) maybe by building cats in a few of them. If I can't, then I just need to grow faster than ST can attack. I will build roads and sentries. Also, I'll try for more cheap warriors before getting feudalism.

PS - I have decided it is time to forget the embassy thing. I did NOT enjoy defending Hlobane with every defensive trick I could think of, and I probably didn't defend perfectly. But IMO the first wave has passed and I can play on. We have a partial agreement about pace, and I think both sides want it to work. I hope this episode didn't detract from anyone's enjoyment of the game.

BTW - Is anybody still watching this ?

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	22-06-2005 15:55									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Still watching and will study the save tonight. I for one am pleased you have decided to continue. The thought processes ( inc. educated guesses / assumptions ) of ST and youself are keeping my interest. I should really ask for more commentry from ST but perhaps it is best to settle for continued regular play at the moment.

	22-06-2005 17:15									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Why not ask him? I know he wanted this duel to have an audience. We are glad to know other players are interested in the game.

	22-06-2005 19:32									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

Still having fun here.

I recommend construction after Phil. Forts can be flashed, and war seems to be a serious part of this game.

	28-06-2005 01:45									#59
	Got spare money?

Been away a week, but still here.

Carolus

	28-06-2005 05:05									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Grigor - I have been looking at your suggestion to take
Construction for making fortresses. I can't remember ever making them, so I am not sure how valuable they are, or where I would build them, or even how long it takes. Do you have specific locations in mind ? This map already has a LOT of mountains and hills for defensive stacks, and I have a very long border, without enough units for an effective line.

But I don't really like the alternatives much. Feudalism would make more sense if I needed pikemen to defend against ellies or if I wanted to build Sun Tzu (I don't - not soon). I am considering the tech-path to Navigation, to control the seas with caravels and maybe Lighthouse (all the danger so far has been from ST's flotillas). Also, one or two explorers could help a lot with an invasion across mts, or as sentries.

I have not ruled out Poly. It would give me a nice military
advantage. Even if ST manages to steal it, he would probably still have a hard time getting Mike's.

69: ST's catapult bombarded my rookie phalanx on grass in Lonsim, and LOST! His phalanx gets back on the boat and leaves. In honor of the defenders, I pledge to prepare this city well for any future attacks. Priority second only to Hlobane and Zimbabwe.

Hlobane will build a courthouse (10 shields) and a barracks and walls (rushed, if necessary). So, it should be pretty safe even if ST can get 4-5 units near it. Which will be pretty hard to do without the aid of surprise. Also, I already have 3 cats defending the 5 cities in this area.

ST has stacks near Intombe and Umtata, but they will be very lucky to do much damage. I expect that continued attacks in this area will cost ST more than they cost me. Of course, he could get lucky, but I think his odds go down each turn.

70: Neopondo (20) founded near Cunaxa, named in honor of the lost city of Mpondo. This helps connect my cities in the central zone, just north of the American homeland. Now I have a cluster of 5 and a nearby cluster of 4, which can soon cooperate in attack, in defense, or in building a wonder.

ST's cat attacks Umtata at 2/3 strength and kills a phalanx, reducing the city to size 1. But I have my own cat there, and it defeats his stack. I claim victory in this exchange, which seems pretty typical in a war of cats. Now it is easy to see how important it was to steal math from the Americans a few turns ago.

71: I detected a loaded trireme north of Zimbabwe last turn and posted my own boat between it and the capitol, which is still poorly defended. Maybe I should have attacked the boat, but I was pretty confident in just diverting it. His boat unloaded a stack on the plains west of Intombe, with a cat on top. I will stall it on plains until I can attack it with horses in 72AD. If that fails, I can place 2 cats near it, sacrificing one to attack with the other.

Meanwhile, my cat in Intombe destroys his Archer (wounded) + warrior north of the city.

So, ST has hurt my cities in this area a bit over the last 10 turns, by maybe 15-20 percent. But his losses in units have been about twice mine (about 400 shields to 200 of mine) and I am much better prepared to defend now than in 61AD. Now I have about 160g on reserve and a clearer advantage in tech.

I think the real danger here has passed. Soon, I will have two boats north of Zimbabwe to intercept further flotillas from Cheb. With only one front to defend (S.E.) and 3-4 vet cats available, my homeland will be pretty safe, and I can start thinking of attacking Cheb, or using my other cities more aggressively.

The game is certainly not over, but I can't find a promising plan for ST. The Zulus can probably create a two-to-one size advantage, build 1-2 more Wonders, and start a decent counter-attack before the Americans can change the picture much.

After my 71AD turn, ST announced he wanted to take his holiday. I assume this refers to our time-limit, and he won't play for about a week.