15-05-2005 04:58									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Wonder if a gravship former then can raise/lower a tile both on sea and land...

No problem, but they can't be automated wich is annoying.

	15-05-2005 05:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Darsnan In some of my later PBEM's I've started players out with Rover Formers and several Rover CP's to boost the early game. D

Yes, I know. They worked very well.

(and you gave my next door neighbour the ruins which gave him 2 monoliths for each of his first four 1x1 spacing bases )

	15-05-2005 07:45									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Wonder if a gravship former then can raise/lower a tile both on sea and land...

Before I knew what I was doing, I would avoid building very many formers until this tech became available. Now, if I make it that far, I might build a few gravship formers. They're very useful for making that city 1 tile away from ocean a coastal city in just one spot. Raising some tiles so an ocean city can have a borehole.

EDIT:This information is clearly wrong, perhaps it worked this way pre-patch? Or my memory is playing tricks on me.

	15-05-2005 13:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Wonder if a gravship former then can raise/lower a tile both on sea and land...

Gravship formers can:

* Raise land tiles
* Lower land tiles, but not to below sea level
* Raise sea tiles, but not to above sea level
* Lower sea tiles

	15-05-2005 14:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Wonder if a gravship former then can raise/lower a tile both on sea and land...

I always was annoyed by small lakes on the map, where fungus was inside and I happened not having a base on the shore. Even if I had, making a sea former for a single tile lake was a bit excessive for me. Anyway, later I found grav former could solve the problem and terraform that tile. Rise/lower sea terrain? I need to check it.

	15-05-2005 18:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Petek Gravship formers can: * Raise land tiles * Lower land tiles, but not to below sea level * Raise sea tiles, but not to above sea level * Lower sea tiles

You're right, I wonder if this was fixed in a patch, because I distinctly remember using gravship formers to work any tile. Of course, my memory could be playing tricks on me, from long ago when I first bought/played SMAC.

	15-05-2005 21:02									#37
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And other former stuff right?

	15-05-2005 21:21									#38
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Yes, the gravship formers can do everything a normal former can do...

I use them a lot...

Attachment: alphform.jpg
This has been downloaded 91 time(s).

	15-05-2005 21:48									#39
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Is that real?

	15-05-2005 22:25									#40
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Jeez, 't looks like a swarm of locusts...

	15-05-2005 23:47									#41
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bah, 4 square spacing

quote: Originally posted by TimeTraveler Reason 1: Digital Sentience gives the Cybernetic society and the Network Backbone. While Cybernetic could be used by opposing factions if they grab Digital Sentience, they'd be unable to benefit from the network backbone unless they got it before the player originally with DS could.

I'll bet pounds to pennies that Eudaimonia has double effect on early game research rate compared with Cybernetic.

	16-05-2005 00:48									#42
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I have two possible choices: Biomachinery and Digital Sentience. I guess I'll start with arguing for Biomachinery.

Reason 1: The only major thing it gives is the Cloning Vats, and only one faction can have that. Therefore, even if another faction stole it, they won't be able to really benefit from that tech unless they somehow took the cloning vats, first.

Reason 2: After researching Doctrine: Initiative, Homo Superior also becomes available. ...which allows for the production of Nanohospitals and the Universal Translator.

I guess in a way, it's almost like getting two advanced techs, with most of their benefits likely to only to reach the player that gets them first.

...and now for reasons in favor of Digital Sentience.

Reason 1: Digital Sentience gives the Cybernetic society and the Network Backbone. While Cybernetic could be used by opposing factions if they grab Digital Sentience, they'd be unable to benefit from the network backbone unless they got it before the player originally with DS could.

Reason 2: After researching Planetary Econimics (a tech we'll want anyway), Sentient Econometrics becomes available. At that point, commerce increases, rec commons stop requiring maintenance, and paradise gardens become available. However, any faction that steals all that will also be able to benefit from it all.

Once again, it's almost like getting two advanced techs. ...and after getting to Advanced Spaceflight or Centauri Psi, it'll end up more like three advanced techs (the third being Self-Aware Machines or Secrets of Alpha Centauri).

I guess after looking at all that, I'd go with Digital Sentience. Maybe.

I also guess that Quantum Power would be in third. ...for both the Quantum Chamber and Quantum Lab. ...although both of those could be probed...

As far as formers and crawlers are concerned, I see them as low-tech enough that I can research them normally. As far as Graviton Theory is concerned, I'm not in as much of a hurry to make my formers able to fly, especially since they'd be using fission reactors (and therefore be quite expensive) for much of the game.

Just thoughts of mine, really.

	16-05-2005 01:12									#43
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I didn't know sentient econometrics covered maintenance for recreation commons...are you sure about this?

Anyway, I agree with digital sentience...however, by the time you managed to build the cloning vats...someone get easily expand faster than you by pop-booming...

Secrets of Alpha Centauri would probably be pretty good as well...you could immediately use Transcends for ICSing or whatever, and you'd have the whole map...even if someone stole the tech, it wouldn't help them that much more...

By the way, singularity reactors make units cheaper, except for missiles and PBs...with scout patrols, they'd just be the same price...

	16-05-2005 01:40									#44
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As I check out alpha.txt, it looks like Sentient Econometrics will make the Rec Commons 'free'. ...although I'm not sure whether it will merely make maintenance costs for them to drop to zero or if they come with every new base or what... I guess I'll need to report in what happens upon researching Sentient Econometrics in my current SMAC game.

Pop booming does seem like a big thing... although for some reason I haven't quite figured out the full potential of pop booming. I guess you could call it my relatively low experience.

I agree that Secrets of Alpha Centauri does rock. ...and amazingly enough, a lot of stuff that leads up to it also rocks.

I did consider Singularity Mechanics, but also saw that the reactors would be its only benefit until Applied Gravitonics. Additionally, they could still be stolen. I suppose the sing.reactors alone could be that powerful... but then again... tech stealing.

One interesting idea could be to take Pre-Sentient Algorithms, take the Hunter Seeker Algorithm, and beeline to Superconductor and Doctrine: Air Power to have Fusion and Orbital Spaceflight readily available.

Then I suppose more beelines coule be made to go to Advanced Spaceflight and Advanced Ecological Engineering.

	16-05-2005 06:42									#45
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Pop booming does seem like a big thing... although for some reason I haven't quite figured out the full potential of pop booming. I guess you could call it my relatively low experience.
Imagine expanding up to your habitation limit in 10 turns or under, in all your bases. Then turning those people into specialists which are inefficiency immune inputs to your economy. Engineers are a favorite of many.
You only need to do it once to see what it can do to your economy, and then you'll be a believer (in the process, not the faction).

	16-05-2005 07:26									#46
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quote: Originally posted by paramir No, It would take FOREVER to build

The Voice and Ascent ?? Not really that long

If playing the UoP or Morgan, I would beeline to IA and start building crawlers.. You could focus on minerals and just start pumping out crawlers (once you get IA you almost don't care about tech)

You would win for sure unless someone with airpower or top level reactors could get to you and start killing those crawlers....

	16-05-2005 07:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro I'm still saying Eudaimonia. All the techs you guys are proposing are useless on their own. Whats teh point of choppers without a gun? Or drop troops when you don't have borders with anyone and don't have crawlers to supply the extra minrows? Ditto treefarms, if you waste time building treefarms early then you're not expanding your colony and 3 maintainance is hellish expensive so you need a few pop to avoid going bankrupt. Singularity > fusion But even so, all that needs to happen for someone with singularity mechanics to lose the advantage is for one probe team to steal a unit. Hardly an uncommon occurance.

While I like the eudomania choice fine as well, I'll stick with MMI. If I beeline to nonlinear maths, how do you propose to survive if you are at all close geographically. Drop troops and choppers. If I picked the gaians, I might even have worms in the mix

	16-05-2005 07:34									#48
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Lord Nword

Is this a modded or altered game ?

I ask since your bases seem to be building things like

Mind-machine lab
Cult of Planet
Planet ark

Did you rename something or are these custom units or something?

	16-05-2005 07:36									#49
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*Looks at map*
hey, even stranger he's building a habitation dome

	16-05-2005 12:09									#50
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I'll bet it's Aldebaran. See AC-Creation forums, and look back in time.

	16-05-2005 13:43									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber While I like the eudomania choice fine as well, I'll stick with MMI. If I beeline to nonlinear maths, how do you propose to survive if you are at all close geographically. Drop troops and choppers. If I picked the gaians, I might even have worms in the mix

Choppers can't capture bases and you're not going to be withing 8 square range of me at the beginning of the game on any map above small. Additionally, both of those expensive units can be destroyed by recon rovers unless you add industrial base/synthmetal to your beeline. But that just gives me more time to reach IA and the joys of +4 industry. If I was playing the Hive then every new base could build a recon rover as its standard defender with its 10 free mins.

And a mind worm rush is a mind worm rush, same as ever.

	16-05-2005 13:56									#52
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I'd sure like to have the map revealed early and some extra nutrients in every base, and Orbital Spaceflight would make those possible, though at a pretty high cost. You'd have to have a number of bases to make it pay off, but ot would be pretty nice to be able to build a few satellites by the time you hit the second bureau limit or so.

	16-05-2005 16:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Lord Nword Is this a modded or altered game ? I ask since your bases seem to be building things like Mind-machine lab Cult of Planet Planet ark Did you rename something or are these custom units or something?

I opened the game with Aldebaran... and I'm using a custom faction as well... The game was originally played in regular SMAX...

And it's a Planet Park (same as centauri preserve...). It's been a while since I've played regular SMAX

The fact that the cost of a fission gravship would probably make me choose a diffierent tech, probably one mentioned in this thread.

	16-05-2005 19:11									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro Choppers can't capture bases and you're not going to be withing 8 square range of me at the beginning of the game on any map above small.

True but my first couple of builds would be drop scouts which are not at all expensive and I would be looking to drop them a full 8 away from their starting location and begin exploring. Bottom line is that I should mmet other factions pretty quickly and we all know how easy it is to get the AI to make trades in the early game.

quote: Originally posted by Senethro Additionally, both of those expensive units can be destroyed by recon rovers unless you add industrial base/synthmetal to your beeline.

Ind base is generally easy to trade for but mobility would be my key. If you had a small island off your coast, watch out. My choppers would be dancing to hit your empire and then move off over water or two tiles into fungus ( and next turn back to base to recoup

quote: Originally posted by Senethro But that just gives me more time to reach IA and the joys of +4 industry. If I was playing the Hive then every new base could build a recon rover as its standard defender with its 10 free mins.

Your industry would be impressive but you are advocating rovers versus choppers. . . What makes you think that you would often get the first shot. The better assumption is that you are more often the defender and that an impact chopper would be successful more often than not.

Your problem might be that I DON'T try to capture your bases but instead, I find places to put bases in 2-3 directions and use these bases to swoop in and kill your formers and crawlers. +4 industry is great but its tough if your terraforming can't get done and you can't crawl anything without armoring the crawlers or escorting stuff

quote: Originally posted by Senethro And a mind worm rush is a mind worm rush, same as ever.

True-- but imagine a rush that is generated by the fungus just outside your empire (If I capture a worm far from you, I will turn it back to the wild to kill it) I hadn't thought this out but early droppers plus early choppers should mean a bonanza of wormkilling and great worm defense

I don't say that MMI is winning as a lot would depend on the map and game setup BUT I would dispute that eudomania wins for certain either

	16-05-2005 19:25									#55
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Following up,

The folks I would be afraid of are probably those guys with the great reactors. If they played normally they could soon have units that are essentailly invulnerable to conventional attack (another reason I might want to be the gaians-- hate the morale hit but an early native ability might counteract some of what people are doing)


All in all , a very interesting question . . . I go back to Darsnan's comment about rock paper scissors. I think that if you look hard at it, no matter what tech you pick , there is a counter that would almost certainly beat it on a given world size and settings.

So is the answer the infamous "it depends"?

	16-05-2005 22:45									#56
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I just realized something...

When I first looked at Eudaimonia, I was mainly thinking the +2 growth of Eudaimonic society, and how when combined with any two of Democratic, Planned, golden ages, and Creches, it would be +6 growth. Then mere minutes ago I realized that I was also completely missing +2 industry, +2 econ, and the Telepathic Matrix. ...so with Eudaimonia and some beelines to Ethical Calculus and Planetary Networks, one could have pop booms, +1 energy per square, and a complete lack of drone problems! ...and then that could later be added with either rebalancing of industry, support, and morale through Power, increasing research and efficiency through Knowledge, or further boosting econ and industry through wealth.

Yeah... I think I'm going to switch my top choice to Eudaimonia.

I think after my current game, I'm also going to edit the game to try to make it and a handful of other techs (like DS, BM, IA, Fusion, Ecology, and PN) less overpowered.

	16-05-2005 23:39									#57
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quote: Originally posted by TimeTraveler I just realized something... When I first looked at Eudaimonia, I was mainly thinking the +2 growth of Eudaimonic society, and how when combined with any two of Democratic, Planned, golden ages, and Creches, it would be +6 growth. Then mere minutes ago I realized that I was also completely missing +2 industry, +2 econ, and the Telepathic Matrix. ...so with Eudaimonia and some beelines to Ethical Calculus and Planetary Networks, one could have pop booms, +1 energy per square, and a complete lack of drone problems! ...and then that could later be added with either rebalancing of industry, support, and morale through Power, increasing research and efficiency through Knowledge, or further boosting econ and industry through wealth. Yeah... I think I'm going to switch my top choice to Eudaimonia. .

It doesn't change my reasoning since I agree that if the eudo player is permitted to build and build, it could lead to a crushing lead. If for instance they had time to build the telepathic matrix before facing major attacks, every one else would be in trouble

I confess that part of my thinking in choosing MMI is the idea that a drop probe will be able to find a vulnerable spot and steal an opponent's advanced tech ( after all , the drop probes can come from anywhere and a single probe defender would likely be inadequate if an opponent can hit you with choppers) .

	16-05-2005 23:40									#58
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quote: think after my current game, I'm also going to edit the game to try to make it and a handful of other techs (like DS, BM, IA, Fusion, Ecology, and PN) less overpowered.

Eudaimonia is not overpowered. Think about it, it comes late in the game. It balances the player who gets the Cloing Vats (+6 Growth with other SE choices).
Gives Yang and Dee +2 (or higher) energy, given they make the appropriate SE choices. No, it's not overpowered, quite the opposite, it's just late enough in the game for it to be considered underpowered. Don't weaken a tech without considering the context of where the tech is placed and what it balances out.

	17-05-2005 02:06									#59
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Nword,

Why not cover all those condensors with crawlers? At least the cluster of fours that don't fall in the city work limits.

	17-05-2005 02:09									#60
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I am realizing it now...Eudaimonia would kill...so maybe your military sucks...yeah, sure, some people have singularity reactors, some have copters, and some have drop pods...but +2 economy without pacifism, pop-booming, and telepathic matrix would literally kill...my next game, I'm playing as Morgan...

But anyway, with the singularity reactors...since they give you 40 hit points, even mindworms would be at loss...not completely, but their success would be minimal...

Perhaps another consideration is transcendent thought...see, you have to have controlled singularity and transcendence to research the first one, but do you have to have both of those techs to research the second one? Does tran. thougth 1 allow you to research thought 2? I ask this because, if you had a tech lead, or good probe teams, if all you did was research thoughts, then your score would literally kill everyone...if score matters to you...