20-05-2005 21:32									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yeah, too much risk of damaging American property. Much better to shoot down airliners over the Persian Gulf.

If they're flying on a descending approach outside of internationionally assigned commercial aviation routes on a direct bearing for a US cruiser, and they ignore communications on internationally designated emergency frequencies, then, yeah, **** 'em.

	20-05-2005 22:56									#32
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Wasn't it established that incident in the Persian Gulf was the Iranian government/mullahs/military testing American naval defenses? They just didn't expect such a lethal reaction.... whoops.

	20-05-2005 23:50									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Wasn't it established that incident in the Persian Gulf was the Iranian government/mullahs/military testing American naval defenses? They just didn't expect such a lethal reaction.... whoops.

Yeah - the XO (at that time) of the USS Vincennes was a neighbor of mine when that happened.

	21-05-2005 02:03									#34
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I only remember one violation of air space fuss here. It was Russia or Byelorus.

	21-05-2005 02:07									#35
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yeah seems like a ruckus now.. neighbour still not answering, and they had spy planes as well that we had to escort out of our air space since they wouldn't not go away.

Their air force denies. Other folks are not saying anything. How nice.

	21-05-2005 02:23									#36
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Almost everyday, about 20-40 Turkish jets violate hellenic airspace. Our jets scramble and intercept them and very often engage in virtual dogfights. The turkish generals use these violatins as a means to exert pressure on their own government as well as on our nerves.

Of course these wargames cost billions of $ to both countries, but what's worse, they are taking their toll on pilots and equipment. Last week, one greek jet ran out of fuel during such a dogfight and had to do a glide landing. A few years back, a turkish F-16 broke down and the pilots had to jump into the sea during such an incident. Our navy picked them up and sent them home.

	21-05-2005 03:55									#37
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That's just "realistic training."

	21-05-2005 04:12									#38
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Doesn't both Turkey and Greece have F-16's? Does that mean that there are F-16 virtual dogfights over the Aegen? Holy crap! Why isn't this type of stuff in the news....one would think that someone would snap a picture of stuff like this.

	21-05-2005 04:30									#39
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Shogun Gunner,yeah sounds cool even though it's kind of serious in its way... as long as no one gets killed.. of course it costs quite much to do it.

There's lots of things that are not in the news, when you know some people they'll tell you, just like this one. I gues we all know how Greeks and Turks are not the best friends.

What can I say. This is extremely stupid move from our neighbour, since this will increase the NATO vote multiple times in here. It is said that it's about 80 against, 20 for. then sometimes it's 70 against, 30 for. But it's not even close being a popular choice in here. Things like these makes it popular soon.

Oh and they were not doign it in our common border. They were doing it in Åland, demilitarized zone, with spy planes etc. So that makes it a bit more 'serious', since it's not one of those things where you just cross the border quickly and fly back when you see the defenses warning you, to test them out and keep them awake. This is somewhere, where even we have to take a little trip, it's not exactly close to anything. So we had to go there and escort 'the lost pilots', because it's not close anything, least Kaliningrad, where they came from. Oh, and all the time too.

It's interesting, you guys remember the 'scandal' that happened in Sweden's territory, where they supposedly had subs there, and they tracked them down and claimed it was Rooskie sub(s)? Of course they denied it, but Swedes were pretty sure it was exactly that. So, they have been interested in that region for a long time (Åland is close to that region, closer than mainland Finland).

I'd say next time drop few bombs on 'big fish' and since the spy planes weren't here according to their air force, they won't mind if we do target practicing either. It's pretty stupid to claim they weren't there, since our fighters had to freaking escort them out since they wouldn't leave.

But of course, everyone, Sweden, Finland and also Baltics are only dreaming about these things and our peace loving friendly neighbour is just ... doing business as usual.

Don't get me wrong. These kind of things don't count as mega hostile acts, these count pretty normal stuff. Of course everyone is oppressing the big bear so they need to flex some virtual muscle. Who knows.. the Nazi Baltics might rise again, our greater finland plotters, ready to take over the world might plot again, not even mentioning the evil NATO.

NATO was about to become obsolete, but it looks like it's just the thing that is needed around.

	21-05-2005 13:33									#40
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Shoot them down. They can't argue about wreckage 10 miles inside your own territory. You were already being a good neighbor by giving them warnings. The best way to handle Russia is to treat them like a spoiled child.

	21-05-2005 14:59									#41
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I think there are some international laws forbiding shooting them down. Of course, it would also cause unnecessary tensions.

It's really weird that they would go on about denying these never happened though. It's not like anyone believes their word for it.

	21-05-2005 15:12									#42
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That may be true of civil aircraft but I think military aircraft is still fair game, especially after warnings. Hostile overflights are also a cause of tension.

	21-05-2005 15:16									#43
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yes definitely OK after warnings. What pisses me off is the fact that they deny it and won't answer our concerns and requests, and actually the problem is now getting bigger and the penetrations to our space ever increasing. THAT'S the stupid part, they have violated our air space all the time in the last decades, nothing new there. Rooskie way I guess. They should still be man enough to apologize and come up with a good excuse other than suggesting our pilots are foo fighters.

	21-05-2005 15:20									#44
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Their arrogance is legendary. Thats one reason I hope someone will put them in their place. Perhaps a few warning shots will get the point across?

	21-05-2005 15:25									#45
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that should do it.. but then again looking back at history it would mean they would mass up all the dudes and start invading again, because we opened hostilities to a peace loving nation, killing workers on their daily stroll, to expand our little swamp lands and out of hatred and jealousy, because we are terrorists and wish to be nazis again.

Something like that I'd suppose.

The other thing, it costs a lot of money because everytime when they won't leave it means we have to send fighters up there to signal them and escort them out. Not exactly cheap stuff. I think what we should do is start locking them with different weapon systems. Of course not shooting, but locking them and see if they come forward. If they do, then fire warning shots. I think that would decrease the number of violations.

Then again, history shows us that they will shoot down their own plane just to claim we did it.

	22-05-2005 08:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Then again, history shows us that they will shoot down their own plane just to claim we did it.

I should have thought of that. I believe if things do escalate out of control the West (and about everyone else) will stand with Finland.

	22-05-2005 08:51									#47
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Well, fortunately it won't come to that, or at least this is not why it would come to that. YOu never know, but then again, this is perfectly normal behaviour from them so .. and not just them, others do it too.

Except if I get myself to some of them AA-missiles.. it's coming down!

	22-05-2005 08:59									#48
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They do this to Finland because Finland doesn't shoot the damned Rooskies down. Finland is part of the EU? Did they ever join NATO? They do these things and it's 'fire away' time.

	22-05-2005 09:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Except if I get myself to some of them AA-missiles.. it's coming down!

	22-05-2005 10:10									#50
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Shoot down those Russian ass-holes.

	22-05-2005 10:31									#51
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yees! you guys are whipping me into a frenzy of shoot-the-planes-down!

	22-05-2005 12:52									#53
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Austrian Airspace has been violated by Americans shamelessly in all kinds of wars since the Gulf War.
And the Yugoslavian airforce decided to fly above our heads after we were the first to recognize Slovenia and Croatia as independant nations...

	22-05-2005 13:50									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Austrian Airspace has been violated by Americans shamelessly in all kinds of wars since the Gulf War.

Got news for you - My first time was in 1984 (though I was under the impression I had transit rights ).
A certain lady's "airspace" near Vienna took another year (I'm sure I had transit rights there too ).

	22-05-2005 18:27									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Shoot them down. They can't argue about wreckage 10 miles inside your own territory. You were already being a good neighbor by giving them warnings. The best way to handle Russia is to treat them like a spoiled child.

I think we should take this advice and use it for handeling american planes as well....
You can't really argue about wreckage 10 miles inside our territory

	22-05-2005 18:54									#56
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You just try

	23-05-2005 01:25									#57
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quote: Doesn't both Turkey and Greece have F-16's? Does that mean that there are F-16 virtual dogfights over the Aegen? Holy crap! Why isn't this type of stuff in the news....one would think that someone would snap a picture of stuff like this.

Of course this is in the news! From time to time, our airforce is releasing some video footage from inside our fighter's cockpit, during the dogfight. You can then clearly hear the pilots swearing with very foul language.

	23-05-2005 03:10									#58
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Okay, I'm very interested now. I did some googling on "Greek Air Force", "Hellenic Air Force", etc. but I could not find anything about dogfights with Turkish jets.

You wouldn't have a link there, would ya?

	23-05-2005 04:58									#59
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shogun gunner, there might be none. If you wanted to find out about violations to our airspace, you would find only this article, and nothing else, nothing from decades of violations, even though it's common knowledge in here.

And this only came this public because someone leaked it to the press. One might say, well this might have something to do with the NATO vote, someone trying to persuade people to want us to join NATO, of course it's possible. But since FM says this is the most active times (2005) of violations, it could be for another reason as well. I don't know.. keep your eyes open I guess.

	23-05-2005 05:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Are they spy planes? You missed the point entirely. The point was whether you (or the US government) would like it if another country constantly spies on you.

In the old days, the Soviets flew as many probing in our airspace as we did theirs. They shot several of ours down, but we did not shoot their down.