22-05-2005 22:34									#31
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A functional third party in America is probably not going to happen.

In any sizable election (city or larger), the winning candidate or party needs to put together a coalition of different interests in order to gain a majority.

In Europe, various interests form their own parties, and the coalition is created out of these smaller entitities.

But in the U.S., we've taken these various factions into the two major parties and have created internal coalitions.

The best chance now for a major third-party to appear is if there's a schism in the Republican Party, with the traditional conservatives (balanced budget; small govt) breaking a way from the new-order conservationalists (less taxes with deficients; Patriot Act omnipresence).

	22-05-2005 22:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler conservationalists

new word!!!!!!!!

	22-05-2005 23:35									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia the libertarian party is fine - in the last wisconsin gubernatorial race, the libertarian candidate (who was a mayor of a city) recieved over 10% of the vote. nationally, we pulled as much as the green party.

You call that fine?

This is the problem with the LP, there is an institutionalised culture of failure. When a candidate gets 10% for something its declared a huge victory. When you have your sights set on beating out the Green Party you are irrelevant by definition.

Che says the point of third parties isn't to win, but to help spread the message. Yes and no. The only possible point of spreading the message is for eventual electoral victory. It is a building step. When a party is stuck at the same building step for 30 years, its no longer building its treading water waiting to drown.

The best way to spread the message is to WIN. Why would the media bother to donate their valuable newsprint/airtime to a party that has always lost and will always lose? They wouldn't, and they don't. No one is interested in a loser.

So how do you win? Stop running crazy people. Stop driving out sane people. Start realizing how politics actually works. If someone has never had any electoral experience whatsoever, they probably aren't the best candidate for Governor (or President). Connections are very important when running for office. You need friends, and you need allies. Libertarians (and I imagine other 3rd parties too) don't seem to do much. They sit out in the woods with their guns smoking pot and reading Hayek. What makes any rational person think this guy is a qualified candidate for office?

	23-05-2005 00:03									#34
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Leftist 3rd parties need to have name that don't remind people of the USSR. The leftist parties should use names like "Workers Party", Labor party", or "Progressive Party". "Socialist", and especially, "Communist" scare people.

	23-05-2005 00:06									#35
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the idea of running for president has worked so well in the US for 3rd parties...

wait, it hasn't

I think they should focus for a local level, and get heard there

than go for the national

it will take sometime... but it has been a long time with no result with the current method

Jon Miller

	23-05-2005 00:07									#36
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I think we could use a functional Second Party, myself.

	23-05-2005 00:10									#37
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I agree

Jon Miller

	23-05-2005 00:42									#38
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quote: The last time Congress had an approval rating this low was 1996 the year control switched.

Control switched in 1994, not 1996.

	23-05-2005 10:28									#39
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I think that any 3rd party that did have success would be brought back into the fold by one (or both) of the 2 parties changing their platform to get those people back.

	23-05-2005 10:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun new word!!!!!!!!

	23-05-2005 12:57									#41
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quote: This is the problem with the LP, there is an institutionalised culture of failure.

No, the problem is (as you alluded to) they are all nuts . Moderate Libertarians become Republicans because all the hardcore Libertarians run the LP and run wackjobs like Harry Browne.

They think nominating a moderate means they are selling out. Bah!

	23-05-2005 15:43									#42
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[i]Vermont has a socialist congressman?[i]

Social-democratic AFAIK. Incidentally, he's the most popular politician in the state, and is a shoe-in for Jefford's Senate seat in '06 (Jeffords is retiring).

	23-05-2005 15:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Control switched in 1994, not 1996.

The last time
Congress had such a low rating the control of Congress switched.

	23-05-2005 17:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Both US parties are basically huge coalitions of voting blocs that would be seperate parties under a PR system. Democrats range from social dems, left wing neo-liberals (Bill Clinton), and religious progressives. The Republicans range from traditional pro-business types and right-wing neo-liberals, the Religious Right, moderate libertarians, and the Neo-Cons.

The problem with that is you have a lot of areas in which one party or the other doesn't have virtually ANY chance of winning (especially in gerrymandered areas). The openings that third parties would have is targetting those areas. Greens should target areas where Republicans don't stand a chance (and only those areas, at least to start with) this would not only maximize the Green's chances of winning but shake things up and keep Dems from getting too complacent. Same goes with Libertarians targetting areas that are very safe Rebublican seats. A party that could draw support from both traditional Dem and Repub voters would do the best in areas where either one of the two big parties traditionally shuts the other our since they'd have a very good chance of getting the few supporters the underdog party has to vote tactically for them (for example "Republicans in Massachusetts district X and Utah district Y, vote Moderate Party since your favored party doesn't have a chance in hell of winning).

	23-05-2005 21:05									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Don't be so down on the Democrats. With Congress's approval ratings down to 33% and polls showing people are blaming Republicans for causing fights over nonissues (Shiavo & Senate procedural rules) instead of things which matter to people (health care costs and education) things are looking up for Democrats. If they can hone their message and speak with one voice then next November is looking very good for them.

The problem is that there's no sign of the Dems either speaking with one voice, or outgrowing the old "tax and spend liberal" baggage that's heaped on whether it applies or not, or of demonstrating any real fiscal sense, or of appearing to have a credible, strong policy on national defense, or....

The only thing the Dems have going for them now is Republicans fragmenting and overreaching the extent of power they currently have.

	23-05-2005 21:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 1. Why does everyone assume the purpose of running in an election is to get elected? The reason these parties run presidential campaigns is that people will come out to listen to the Communist candidate for President, but not the Communist candidate for water reclamation district 5. Running a Presidential candidate is a way to get people to listen to their views.

Because for those who want to actually do something more substantive than hearing their own voice, winning elections is a bit of a prerequisite.

quote: 2. The Greens spend most of their energy running in local campaigns, and, IIRC, have more than 75 elected officials in the U.S. Granted, it's not a lot, but they are a small party running in a system where people are scared to vote outside thei main parties for fear of handing the election to the "wrong" candidate.

Out of more than 100,000 elected officials?

quote: 3. These parties are very small and don't have the resources to spend on multiple campaigns. One "big" campaign is easier than multiple small ones.

They're small because they have no appeal to the vast majority, and never will unless they start addressing issues of concern to a significant number of people, in a way supported by a significant number of people. As long as they want to be loonies on the fringe who use politics as a form of social circle-jerk among their in crowd, they're never going to be anything but small. If that's what they want, ok, but why should anyone consider them a real political party or take them seriously?

quote: 4. Sometimes they do get press coverage. Workers World was getting lots of coverage in '96 relative to their small size.

On slow news days when there was a need for comic relief. There's meaningful press coverage and there's filler.

	24-05-2005 05:31									#47
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In order for it to be a functional third party, it would need to draw support from Democrats and Republicans (otherwise, it'll just cripple one to the other's advantage. Likeliest it would be fiscally conservate (at least, compared to the other two parties) and socially moderate to liberal. It would probably need big names or spenders (ie, Perot, Schwartzenager, etc) to grab attention.

	24-05-2005 08:16									#48
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the libertarians draw support from both crowds.

sorry, no PLS or PRD links in english.

http://www.liberal.ch/index_fr.html thats in french
http://www.liberal.ch/index_de.html thats in german (swiss german most likely)

	24-05-2005 22:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat or of [Democrats] appearing to have a credible, strong policy on national defense

Do the Republicans have one? What is it?

	25-05-2005 00:56									#50
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat or of [Democrats] appearing to have a credible, strong policy on national defense Do the Republicans have one? What is it?

[Conan]
Crush all enemies, drive them before you, ...
[/Conan]

	25-05-2005 01:05									#51
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat or of [Democrats] appearing to have a credible, strong policy on national defense Do the Republicans have one? What is it?

Not really, but they fool enough of the electorate that the perception still works against the Dems, many of whom do suck far worse on national security issues.

	25-05-2005 05:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia the libertarians draw support from both crowds.

They're probably too fiscally conservative for most Americans. They also need someone whose not a "lets blow up the UN" kook as their candidate,

	25-05-2005 05:09									#53
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat or of [Democrats] appearing to have a credible, strong policy on national defense Do the Republicans have one? What is it?

Apparently, it's promoting democracy:

quote: U.S. policies pay off in global security, says think tank Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 07:21 JST LONDON — Washington's policies of promoting democracy in Iraq and elsewhere look "increasingly effective," and even the threat from terrorism abated slightly during 2004, the International Institute for Strategic Studies said in an annual report released Tuesday. The London-based think tank noted, however, that the situation in Iraq was also creating a recruitment effect for terrorist groups, an aspect which remained "the proverbial elephant in the living room" of U.S. foreign policy.

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