24-05-2005 22:29									#61
	Got spare money?

this was a good deal. 3 judges go through, 2 dont which is a compromise. The prez won the election, he can for the most part get his judges through, even a few travesties. And the Dems can use the filibuster to stop a few.

More importantly, the work of the Senate goes on, and a step is taken away from the politics of mutual destruction.

Feh on Munich analogies, this is a dispute within a democracy, not a pact with Hitler. Feh!

In fact its extremists on both sides, who lose.

at last, the center held.

	24-05-2005 22:30									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Rhenquist is already a reactionary, so putting another one on the bench changes nothing. Allowing people like Owen and Brown to sit in the Federal courts, where most decisions are made, is far more dangerous.

The Dems simply should have made a threat. "Remember, we will control the Senate again one day. If you do this, we will screw you when the time comes."

	24-05-2005 22:32									#63
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark at last, the center held.

What did they hold, their breath, their dicks? It certainly wasn't their integrity or their principles or any semblance of victory. They let three terrible judges through, when there is no guarantee that GOP would have one the rules change.

	24-05-2005 22:32									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned, Thomas caused such a controversy because creditable witnesses came forward saying Thomas sexually harrassed her. For coming forward and telling the truth about Thomas Anita Hill got attacked, called a whore, and had fanatical extremists throw mud at her. BTW 80%+ of the black population and around 60%+ of the latino population disagree with you about which party is racist. Edit: Name changed

Oerdin, the "allegations" by Hill were miniscule at best, but were trumpted and proclaimed and held out for all as the basest form of depravity by this vicious black man by the party allegedly in favor of the black man. The smearing of Thomas was outrageous.

I know the stats on black support of the Dem party. It has a lot to do with Democrat smears, FDR and the liberal media spinning things to make it appears that Republicans are racist when it is the Dems who are racist.

	24-05-2005 22:34									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

Thomas wasn't qualified to be a judge. He's only where he is because of racist Republicans tokenizing him. He was made a judge because he was Black, and for no other reason.

	24-05-2005 22:35									#66
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You mean, Ned. You should also attack Ned for his racist argument, since it assumes Blacks and Latinos are too stupid to realize that the Democrats are lying to them and that the GOP really isn't racist.

NO, Che. I said the main problem was that the liberal press is the Dems major supporter in this "misperception."

As time goes on and news is less the private domain of the liberal media, black will learn the truth.

	24-05-2005 22:35									#67
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What did they hold, their breath, their dicks? It certainly wasn't their integrity or their principles or any semblance of victory. They let three terrible judges through, when there is no guarantee that GOP would have one the rules change.

your rhetoric is heading steadily downhill.

They COMPROMISED. You give up some of what you believe, the other guy gives up some of what he believes. They let 3 judges go through, who might well have gone through anyway, if the GOP had won the rules change. They stopped 2 judges.

And they restored some dignity to the Senate.

	24-05-2005 22:37									#68
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I can only hope the Repubs put the Demons to an immediate test of their sincerity by forwarding all blocked nominees to a vote.

BTW, some prominent Dem just said that "every" Supreme Court nominee is "extraordinary."

	24-05-2005 22:37									#69
	Tired of ads?

They didn't compromise. The GOP got everything it wanted. The Democrats got nothing.

	24-05-2005 22:37									#70
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you do this, we will screw you when the time comes."

See the right hates this compromise, cause they wanted to screw Dems. The left hates it, cause they wanted to screw the GOP. The 14 are worthy of honor, because they put the NATION above screwing their partisan opponents.

	24-05-2005 22:39									#71
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They didn't compromise. The GOP got everything it wanted. The Democrats got nothing.

They stopped (effectivelyt) 2 judges who might have gotten through, and got an acknowledgement of the right to filibuster judges in extraordinary circumstances. And they got an assertion that advise and consent means Bush should consult with Dems AND GOP on any future appointments.

	24-05-2005 22:39									#72
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No one who allows Priscilla Owen to become a Federal judge is putting their nation ahead of anything. They are putting politics ahead of the best interests of their country. Sometimes you have to fight, even if it means you're going to take a few knocks. As long as the Dems refuse to fight, they are going to continue to lose.

	24-05-2005 22:40									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They didn't compromise. The GOP got everything it wanted. The Democrats got nothing.

So why is the right already threatening revenge on the Senators who supported this?

	24-05-2005 22:42									#74
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The biggest and most often told lies told by the right wing is that the media is all in on a giant left wing conspiracy and that Republicans are some how a poor persecuted minority. Both claims don't stand up to reality and the facts prove the opposite. I know you won't let little things like the facts get in your way, Ned. You never do.

	24-05-2005 22:42									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No one who allows Priscilla Owen to become a Federal judge is putting their nation ahead of anything. They are putting politics ahead of the best interests of their country. Sometimes you have to fight, even if it means you're going to take a few knocks. As long as the Dems refuse to fight, they are going to continue to lose.

One judge (who can be overruled on appeal by SCOTUS) versus the unity of the country, the dignity of the Senate, and restoration of civility to politics sounds like a good tradeoff. Of course if you DONT WANT unity, and dont want the restoration of civility, i suppose it looks different.

	24-05-2005 22:42									#76
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Thomas wasn't qualified to be a judge. He's only where he is because of racist Republicans tokenizing him. He was made a judge because he was Black, and for no other reason.

See!!!!!!

	24-05-2005 22:45									#77
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No one who allows Priscilla Owen to become a Federal judge is putting their nation ahead of anything. They are putting politics ahead of the best interests of their country. Sometimes you have to fight, even if it means you're going to take a few knocks. As long as the Dems refuse to fight, they are going to continue to lose.

fighting on Social Security will help them. Shutting down the Senate over judicial nominations almost certainly wont.


Its not just a zero sum game, BTW. Even if the GOP would have been hurt more, the possibility of disenchantment with the whole system is quite real. But of course as a revolutionary you would WANT such disenchantment, so why am I arguing with you?

	24-05-2005 22:45									#78
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So why is the right already threatening revenge on the Senators who supported this?

The Christian Coalition is calling for revenge but most other groups seem happy that the two parties could actually work together. Polls where showing something like 80% of the population wanted the two parties to work together and not to change Senate rules. The Christian Coalition has always been an extremist group which demands 100% their way or the highway in everything. These extremists extort money from the faithful and the guillible though so many Republicans pander to their every whim.

It's to bad since extremism only ever results in more extremism.

	24-05-2005 23:05									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark But of course as a revolutionary you would WANT such disenchantment, so why am I arguing with you?

You know, sometimes I'm just an American. The Republicans are bullies. You do not respond to bullies by trying to reason with them or compromise with them. You pop them right in the ****ing nose. Once they know they can't bully you around anymore, they become a lot more amenable to reasoned argument and compromise. The Democrats refuse to pop the GOP in the nose, and people are congradualting them on being dragged into letting the GOP get what it wanted in the first place.

In addition, let's look at thow this worked.

GOP adopts extreme position #1. Dems say no. GOP adopts an even more extreme psition #2. The Democrats cave on #1, and get the GOP to agree not to push #2 through. Thus, the GOP gets a victory, the Democrats merely stopped #2, which was only adopted in order to get #1 through in the first place. Yet moderates want to call this a compromise, when the reality is that the GOP got what it wanted in the first place and the Democrats lost what they wanted in the first place.

And they fall for this, over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over . . . .

	24-05-2005 23:31									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Interestingly enough Senator Lindsay Graham (R-SC) has said that one of the three that are going to the full Senate will NOT be approved. Graham is a moderate, so he probably knows, more than most how the moderate Republicans are going.

	24-05-2005 23:42									#81
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, sometimes I'm just an American. The Republicans are bullies. You do not respond to bullies by trying to reason with them or compromise with them.

I know some republicans. I dont share your charecterization of them.

	24-05-2005 23:50									#82
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There are moderate in the Republican party who put the good of the nation ahead of petty politics. They are the minority but they do exist. In fact we saw seven of them today along with seven from the Democratic party.

The extremists like Delay, Frist, and Bush seem to control the party though.

	25-05-2005 01:36									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm curious. With this "comprimise," what's to stop the GOP from threatening to use the "nuclear option" again now that they know the Dems don't have the stomach for a fight? And again?



And again?

	25-05-2005 01:40									#84
	Tired of ads?

Supposedly those seven Republicans have promised to vote against Frist's nuclear option and the seven Democrats will vote to allow three of the extremist nominees proceed. The Critical math is that Democrats have 43 votes, Independents have 1 vote (who normally votes with the Democrats since he's a centrist), and Republicans have 56 votes. Since 51 votes are needed to pass a bill the seven people on each side are enough to insure a vote succeeds.

	25-05-2005 01:45									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Erm, are they going to be voting on these judicial noms 'til Kingdom come? I'm not talking about the judges anymore, I'm talking about the next time the GOP really wants some vote or another and Dems (with some Reps) don't go along fully-compliant.

	25-05-2005 01:53									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs I'm curious. With this "comprimise," what's to stop the GOP from threatening to use the "nuclear option" again now that they know the Dems don't have the stomach for a fight? And again? And again?

"the dems dont have the stomach for a fight" is one way of putting it. Look at the National Review editorial - they see the Dems in a position to stop a SCOTUS nomination. Cause the seven Repubs wouldnt have the stomach to stand up to the Dems.

Really it could go either way.

To Repubs what the Dems were doing was unprecedently, procedurally. To the Dems it was not different in substance from what the GOP had done to Clinton, and the GOP nominees were extremists. The art of compromise involves recognizing that EACH side has a point, and taking that point seriously. EVEN when you have reason to distrust the other. Thats what all 14 Senators did.

Really, I hope that Arik Sharon and Abu Mazen dont take the approach to negotiating that y'all suggest.

	25-05-2005 03:50									#87
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark To Repubs what the Dems were doing was unprecedently, procedurally.

The GOP was lying (surprise!) since they did it to one of Johnson's nominees back in '68.

	25-05-2005 05:07									#88
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The filibuster of Abe Fortas was done to extend debate (the, ya know, actual purpose of the filibuster) so that ethical improprieties could be investigated. It wasn't done to indefinitely delay a vote on his appointment, as the Democrats are doing now. Their behavior is unprecedented.

	25-05-2005 06:45									#89
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There has always been closure votes in the history of the senate.

What are you talking about?The "cloture" rule didn't exist until 1917.

	25-05-2005 07:05									#90
	Increase Your PM Length

Every right wing political commentator I heard today is hopping mad at what happened. They are saying they are going to take revenge on the Republican traitors who have now sabatoged the Bush presidency.

Bush seemed to have no comment on the fact that the Dems can continue to block two nominees. He just said that he was happy his nominees will now be receiving a vote.

What is he trying to say? Is he surrendering on the two that remained blocked?