25-05-2005 12:30									#31
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we need meaning to keep from shooting ourselves. It's tough when your existance means nothing in the world to no one.

	25-05-2005 12:34									#32
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Yeah, but the meaning to keep us from shooting ourselves comes from human minds - from humans which think (because of some good reasons I'd say) it has meaning not to shoot ourselves.

Of course I have no idea how religious people would say that, but that's my opinion.

	25-05-2005 13:16									#33
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Read Sarte: http://www.marxists.org/reference/a...xist/sartre.htm

And Camus: http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/user.../lit/indexa.htm

	25-05-2005 13:17									#34
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quote: You believe in chaos theory? I believe it has some interesting things to say about how the economy works. You imply that it makes life meaningless?

On the contrary... I was responding to the claim that you made implying that if you did not exist, the world wouldn't be any different.

The flutter of butterfly wings that constitutes your so-called meaningless and inconsequential life could bear tremendous fruit, or could be incredibly disastrous. I'm sure Hitler's father often pondered on the inconsequentiality of his life in the big scheme of things... as would have Martin Luther's father... or their mothers for that matter.

	25-05-2005 13:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Maybe so but experiences don't lead to some purpose. Well at least they don't seem to. Heck, go through life building up experiences and then you die and all those experiences become essentially purposeless again. It's like people who say lifes purpose/meaning is to acquire knowledge, bs, doesn't lead to any purpose or meaning, its just something to do whilst your here. Same with experiences. Basically you're just wasting time till you die and how you waste that time is up to you.

Of course not. Whose to say that those experiences gained in life become wasted? What's to say becomes of our essence after our bodies expire? Acquiring knowledge doesn't mean jack unless you apply it to the world. Knowing how bee's communicate is all well and good but if you don't apply it to helping your fellow man, what good is that knowledge? The application of said knowledge should be the goal in acquiring knowledge itself.

I wouldn't necessarily say we are wasting time acquiring experiences for the sake of experiences. If you believe that all accumluated experiences are lost upon expiration, well...I can't really argue with that because that goes into spirituality (something I don't want this thread to turn into).

What happens after life is something none of us know, but I personally like to believe that our accumulated experiences mean something to our Karma.....

	25-05-2005 14:04									#36
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Yeah in general I tend to agree with you. It's just that if you try to talk meaning and purpose to life it seems to head into a talk about the afterlife. You could argue that the only meaning to life is to help make the world a better place but again its entirely up to the person what makes a better place. So in the end it pretty much renders asking this whole question meaningless.

I must say Starchilds answer did leave me with a little fuzzy feeling inside

	25-05-2005 14:07									#37
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* Starchild watches as his cult grows.

	25-05-2005 14:28									#38
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it all finally comes down to if you believe that you are the sum of your parts or something more...it doesnt matter if other people will miss you or not...it matter if you stuck by your principles when it counted. that when you walk down the street you can start smiling for nothing just because you are happy...but is also means crying when something bad happens running until you have to gasp for air and your heart is beating so hard in your chest that you think it will explode...

Live LIFE so that you can be proud of what you see in a mirror

	25-05-2005 14:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yeah in general I tend to agree with you. It's just that if you try to talk meaning and purpose to life it seems to head into a talk about the afterlife. You could argue that the only meaning to life is to help make the world a better place but again its entirely up to the person what makes a better place. So in the end it pretty much renders asking this whole question meaningless. I must say Starchilds answer did leave me with a little fuzzy feeling inside

Agreed. Definitely talking about "meaning" and "purpose" in life eventually steers to the afterlife and religion. Besides, I doubt any of us are going to change our opinions and beliefs on what "Life" "Means".

Of course, we're all inherently going to apply our own religion's p.o.v. on what life means to us.



Yes, Starchilds response was pretty impressive. And I agree with the soul of what was said.

	25-05-2005 15:16									#40
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quote: Live LIFE so that you can be proud of what you see in a mirror

Aye maybe so, but I think Carolus Rex is arguing thats whats the point in that? Sure you can look yourself in the face in the mirror every evening/morning/afternoon/night but essentially that doesn't mean anything.

Basically this whole question is pointless unless you figure out what the afterlife is, which as stated is virtually impossible. Given no afterlife, there pretty much is no meaning to your life other than what you give it yourself. Given a afterlife then that changes everything and you best hope you don't piss off some big bad guy who'll get you in the next life.

	25-05-2005 15:20									#41
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Just to expand on my first paragraph. I think Carolus Rex is looking for an answer to this question that can be applied across the board to every single human being (and whatever else maybe) that there is. Maybe, I could be wrong in what Rex is looking for. However he ain't gonna get an answer that'll sufficiently satisfy him I think. Deriving meaning to life is just a human construct anyways.

	25-05-2005 15:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Just to expand on my first paragraph. I think Carolus Rex is looking for an answer to this question that can be applied across the board to every single human being (and whatever else maybe) that there is. Maybe, I could be wrong in what Rex is looking for. However he ain't gonna get an answer that'll sufficiently satisfy him I think. Deriving meaning to life is just a human construct anyways.

Yep, and it is good in that way IMO. Imagine there would be one universal meaning of life we all had to follow - sounds horrible to me.

	25-05-2005 15:29									#43
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Yeah and it raises all sorts of issues once you get to the fact that some people become really successful business people and politicians and some people just end up as the'common people'. How can you have one solid meaning to life when theres such widespread difference between people?

You can't, and if you did life would be bloody boring, imagine everyone trying to follow the same meaning to life, you'd end up with a heap of clones with only minor variations between them.

	25-05-2005 16:22									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Is there any meaning of life at all? My life is completely insignificant; it won't change one single thing in this world. This assertion is not to be interpreted as an expression of some teenager's low self-esteem or pathetic depression of having been thrown away by a lover... I truly believe it. Furthermore, I go on to claim that, in the bigger scheme of things, your life and every single individual's life is completely meaningless as well... I make that judgement without knowing you and I firmly believe I'm right... Does this imply that life at an aggregated level (i. e. the existence of humanity) is meaningless too? Is the sum of a large number of totally insignificant parts also insignificant? I'm not sure about that one... Discuss, mortals. Carolus

Take heart Carolus, with "the butterfly effect" even a decision as seemingly insignificant as declaring war in a computer game could change the outcome of history. So be careful!

	25-05-2005 20:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Sounds like you need to step away from the monitor and get outside. Talk a walk through the park. Do you still believe in Rock and Roll, Carolus?

Yes; it keeps me from falling asleep at the wheel...

You miss the point (and so does Starchild). This is a philosophical issue; not a matter of me "learning" how to enjoy life (I enjoy it as well as I sometimes hate it).

Life is still meaningless... The moment I'm gone, nothing will matter anymore: what I did, what I thought, how I lived... The impact will be absolutely zero. IMHO, of course.

Carolus

	25-05-2005 20:36									#46
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As someone who is inclined to screw up the simplest thing, I take that to be a good thing.

	25-05-2005 20:37									#47
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I'm not missing the point. I don't really give a toss whether you enjoy life or not. the whole crux of my philosophy is that existence is meaningless and that's what makes it so wonderful. Once again:

Life is meaningless which is what makes living so important.

	25-05-2005 20:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Life is still meaningless...

....unless we assign meaning to it, and we do it all the time, to different facets of our life. Still I don't understand what the problem there is.

quote: The moment I'm gone, nothing will matter anymore: what I did, what I thought, how I lived... The impact will be absolutely zero. IMHO, of course.

That's debatable - impact on what?

	25-05-2005 21:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Yes, Starchilds response was pretty impressive.

What?

It was perhaps well articulated, but basically stuff you find in any mainstream Hollywood feel good movie... I only gave you one example in my response to Starchild (Dead Poets' Society)...

Carolus

	25-05-2005 21:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Once again: Life is meaningless which is what makes living so important.

Interesting. We agree on the first part, but draw completely different conclusions...

Carolus

	25-05-2005 21:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Read Sarte: http://www.marxists.org/reference/a...xist/sartre.htm And Camus: http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/user.../lit/indexa.htm

I've read both (in french), but that was perhaps 12-13 years ago. I think I preferred Camus' La peste to his L'étranger at the time... I didn't like the book by Sartre (Les mains sales IIRC) at all...

Carolus

	25-05-2005 21:50									#52
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro That's debatable - impact on what?

Ok, let me try to clarify.

Had I not existed, then nothing in this world would IMHO have changed (for better or for worse). My life (any person's life) is insignificant, it makes no difference if any single person exists or not...

Maybe it makes a difference for any single person (most people are happy to exist and do not want to cease existing), but in a larger context any given life is probably without importance.

I do not know if the total of all these insignificant parts (i. e. humanity) also is insignificant... If humanity is important (which I doubt), then perhaps the parts that make it up (individual lives) also are?

Carolus

	25-05-2005 21:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat As someone who is inclined to screw up the simplest thing, I take that to be a good thing.

Carolus

	25-05-2005 21:56									#54
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significance, meaning, importance, etc. all imply a relationship of one entity or object to another. So, if you extended the context of your analysis to be outside all entities or objects of course you will eventuall succumb to the conclusion or irrelevance.

So what?

That's like me saying that there is really no such thing as an endothermic or exothermic reaction because I have taken the whole universe as my system.

	25-05-2005 21:59									#55
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Bah. Existence is a brute fact, get over it (to paraphrase Russel).

So you exist. Whoo-de-****ing-do. So you're insignificant. Deal with it and move on. Take pride in your insignificance! You can go out and actually do things without worrying about the universe at large. It's possible to go out in life and love and mourn and hate and exhault in the human condition secure in the knowledge that the universe won't give a damn what you do.

Gods, can you imagine if you were actually important? That your actions could change the course of the stars or do anything to actually impact the greater cosmos? You'd never do anything. If we actually were significant, we'd end up as cold and distant and silent as the dead.

Insignificance may be the greatest gift available.

	25-05-2005 22:01									#56
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quote: Insignificance may be the greatest gift available.

I also like ignorance... or the arrogance to not care about things outside yourself.

	25-05-2005 22:03									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Is there any meaning of life at all? My life is completely insignificant; it won't change one single thing in this world. This assertion is not to be interpreted as an expression of some teenager's low self-esteem or pathetic depression of having been thrown away by a lover... I truly believe it. Furthermore, I go on to claim that, in the bigger scheme of things, your life and every single individual's life is completely meaningless as well... I make that judgement without knowing you and I firmly believe I'm right... Does this imply that life at an aggregated level (i. e. the existence of humanity) is meaningless too? Is the sum of a large number of totally insignificant parts also insignificant? I'm not sure about that one... Discuss, mortals. Carolus

Our lives may or may not contribute to undoing the heat death of the universe(even if it involves just proving that such an occurence will never take place). If we can't do that, then everything was and is a complete waste of time.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Food

	25-05-2005 22:05									#58
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quote: everything was and is a complete waste of time.

Oh no! Life Is Spam.

	25-05-2005 22:10									#59
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I would disagree that even on an indivdual level things are that insignificant. As I understand it, and as others mentioned in this thread we construct or assign meaning to things we consider important. But then I cannot say these are all insignificant or meaningless things. Certainly not to me, and to certain people around me.

If you want to measure it in the "grand scheme of things" - how would you do it? I mean when exactly can you say something is insignificant or not? You would need to establish some rules first what counts as significant and what not, and I think that's a massive problem. Is a war significant? Probably that can count....but then, are there only the decisions of the top level staff significant in this war or actions of individual soldiers too, which actually put the decisions in praxis?

The fact that there is no single or universal meaning does not matter to me, since we all have something that has meaning for us - otherwise we wouldn't care about it. And such a "construction" of meaning does not only work on an individual level, but in groups too (so since we usually do not live as hermits, but interact with eachother).....In that sense we all have impact on eachother. Yes, we cannot snip with the fingers and change the world instantly in that way. But that does IMO not say that everything we do is insignificant, if we think it as meaningful.

That's how I (non-philosopher) see it.

	25-05-2005 22:55									#60
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Good post (it pretty much sums up people's replies, I guess)!

Carolus