28-05-2005 12:55									#31
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I'm for gun control on certain types of weapons. Mainly concealable weapons like pistols, sawed off shotguns etc. And of course assault rifles.

But I do believe people should be allowed to have a shotgun and hunting rifle for hunting purposes or home defense.

But I do like guns. I own a Glock 17 (yes it's a pistol). I'd gladly give it up if we had gun control for concealable weapons. I'd get a shotgun instead.

	28-05-2005 13:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But I do believe people should be allowed to have a shotgun and hunting rifle for hunting purposes or home defense.

You should hunt with nothing more than spears and knives.

	28-05-2005 13:09									#33
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those are real useful if for some reason you happen to piss off a grizzly bear.

	28-05-2005 13:12									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Just a question. Do you think a bunch of people with small arms can take on the US military? This is not the 18th century, when the "oppressor" wasn't much better armed than the "rebels." The rationale for gun ownership is obsolete, dead, buried.

do you think the U.S. military would fire upon it's own citizens? The U.S. military would have massive desertions.

	28-05-2005 14:11									#35
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I like guns in games. But I prefer gun control in real life.

I don't buy this nonsense that allowing citizens to own weaponry will prevent an oppressive government from emerging - Saddam encouraged his people to arm themselves to the teeth. Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler all came to power because they could equip private armies to intimidate and murder the opposition.

	28-05-2005 15:03									#36
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I like them both. I think they should be available, and licensed.

	28-05-2005 15:10									#37
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gun control, as long as it is in my hand it is in control

	28-05-2005 16:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do you think the U.S. military would fire upon it's own citizens? The U.S. military would have massive desertions.

Well, it has done in the past.


" As Harper’s Weekly reported the following month, "Governor Matthews evoked the aid of the national government. President Hayes responded promptly." Federal troops armed with Springfield rifles and Gatling guns arrived in Martinsburg on July 19. The show of force got the trains running, releasing the 13 locomotives and 1,500 freight cars bottled up in Martinsburg.


STRIKE SPREADS

But the strike was far from over. "Indeed, it was barely begun," reported Harper’s Weekly. "As fast as the strike was broken in one place it appeared in another," wrote Boyer and Morais. The revolt against the powerful railroad companies spread into western Pennsylvania, Kentucky and Ohio.

Believing that strikers in Cumberland were stopping the eastbound trains from Martinsburg, Maryland’s governor ordered out the state militia. Thousands of the jobless and underpaid in Baltimore clearly saw whose interests the governor’s proclamation served.

Within a half hour of the call, "a crowd numbering at least 2,000 men, women, and children surrounded the [Maryland Sixth Regiment] armory and loudly expressed their feelings against the military and in favor of the strikers," according to Harper’s Weekly. The crowd added bricks and stones to the curses hurled against the armory. The police were powerless.

Once the troops emerged for their march to Camden Station, shots were fired — and shots were exchanged. The militia killed at least 10 and wounded many others, among them curious onlookers. The Fifth Regiment was also attacked, although no shots were fired.

BATTLE IN PITTSBURGH

Sympathy for the strikers was even stronger in Pittsburgh. Here, said Boyer and Morais, the strike against Tom Scott’s Pennsylvania Railroad "had the support even of businessmen, angry at the company because of extortionate freight rates." The police and local militia sided with the strikers, so the authorities had to appeal for troops from Philadelphia.

When the militiamen arrived and marched out of the station, they were met with the cries of an angry crowd — and, according to Harper’s, "a shower of stones." They emptied their rifles into the crowd, killing 20 men, women and children and wounding 29. "The sight presented after the soldiers ceased firing was sickening," reported the New York Herald; the area "was actually dotted with the dead and dying."

A newspaper headline read: "Shot in Cold Blood by the Roughs of Philadelphia. The Lexington of the Labor Conflict at Hand. The Slaughter of Innocents."

As the news reached nearby rolling mills and manufacturing shops, workers came rushing to the scene. Workers broke into a gun factory and seized rifles and small arms. Wrote Boyer and Morais, "Miners and steel workers came pouring in from the outskirts of the city and as night fell the immense crowd proved so menacing to the soldiers that they retreated into the roundhouse." By midnight, Harper’s said, some 20,000 surrounded the roundhouse, 5,000 of them armed.

Workers and soldiers exchanged gunfire throughout the night. The workers nearly succeeded in burning out the troops by sending a blazing oil car hurtling against a nearby building. "


http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_1877.html

The Pullman Strike:

http://www.lib.niu.edu/ipo/ihy941208.html

	28-05-2005 17:50									#39
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quote: Originally posted by planet gun control, as long as it is in my hand it is in control

I have to query the amount of control that can be exercised by one lacking the motor skills to press a "Shift" key.

	28-05-2005 21:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do you think the U.S. military would fire upon it's own citizens? The U.S. military would have massive desertions.

There would be massive desertion, but not complete..... that is why we need our guns.

	28-05-2005 21:11									#41
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Why are you guys so inconsequent? Everyone should have the right to have every kind of weapon he wishes to have. You can get cheap, used MBTs quite easily these days. That would make gang wars so much more interesting.

	28-05-2005 21:29									#42
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All private citizens should have unfetted access to any weapons they like, provided they can afford them.

I'm sure PH can recommend some Biochemical "Home Defence" weapons suppliers.

	28-05-2005 21:51									#43
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@Dauphin.

	28-05-2005 22:14									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do you think the U.S. military would fire upon it's own citizens? The U.S. military would have massive desertions.

Hasn't somebody mentioned Kent State already?

	28-05-2005 22:16									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin All private citizens should have unfetted access to any weapons they like, provided they can afford them. I'm sure PH can recommend some Biochemical "Home Defence" weapons suppliers.

I prefer thermonuclear weapons myself.

Very good for suicide bombings, too.

	28-05-2005 23:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If the government can regulate speech and religion, it can sure as hell regulate gun ownership. Maybe you have been absent the last few years, but most effective ways of getitng rid of a bad government are carried out peacefully. Anhd most armed revolts against even the most noxious governments fail unless the vast mayority of the populace supports the revolt, or the revolt is also backed by the military. A bunch of guys with machines guns and explosives would not stand a chance against a trully repressive military bent on their total annahilation and not giving a damn about world opinion. On top of all of this, most guns used for crime (handguns) are also those less worthwhile for fighting "the government". So lets control handgun ownreship up the ying yang.

Well done. On so many points.

The television is 1000 times more powerful than any weapons.

What gets more sympathy:

An unarmed Boris Yeltsin standing atop a tank?

Or Boris leading a group of armed thugs who are popping off AK-47s (and innocent people dying in the process).

Most of Eastern Europe was overturned peacefully.

	29-05-2005 00:20									#47
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To be clear, I am not against people owning guns, I just think there needs to be regulations so that they are safer (trigger locks, for example), and so criminals and terrorists can get thier hands on semi-automatic rifles and other millitary equipment.

	29-05-2005 00:33									#48
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The government has the right to regualte speech and religion. It has the right to prosecute use of speech which is harmful, such as incitement to violence or defamation. It has the right to regulate use of religion which is harmful, such as if it were to involve a harmful act, such as a pastor who claims beating children is the will of God. The Government also has the right to regulate harmful uses of guns, such as murdering people.

I believe self-defense is a basic right which the government ought not to take away from us.

	29-05-2005 00:45									#49
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From my point of view (and I am obviously not an US Constitutional expert), the first few words mention a well-regulated militia. Well-regulated suggest that the people bearing these arms are a/ registered as such by the state (not federally) b/ under the command of the state (and not federally). So I guess the National Guard comes closest, though it should really be more of a State Guard with no ties to federal whims and wants.

I don't think the intention was to have everyone armed, everywhere with whatever weapons, but rather to have certain amount of the menfolk in any village/city/state have the ability to take up arms, under leadership. So loners off the grid in Montana with an arsenal in his cellar doesn't really count.

	29-05-2005 00:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Freedom of speech is not clearly defined, nor freedom of the press..... the second amendment could not possibly be written any more plain.

You're a know-nothing, really. Why not read up on the history of the debate over gun regulation and get back to us, eh?

If the 2nd ammendment were so clear, it wouldn't be an issue. But it's among the most contentious ammendments there is, so that right there proves you wrong.

I see nothing in the text that prohibits gun control regulation. In fact, the "well-regulated" part seems to indicate otherwise, to me.

And "Militia" has consistently been interpreted to refer to the national guard, despite your protests. In fact, Article 2, Section 2 explicitley says the President of the U.S. has authority over the "Militia." Whether or not the "Militia" is the national guard (sure sounds like it) is irrelevant, since the use of "militia" in both this section and the 2nd ammendment indicates that this is exactly as to what that ammendment is referring. The right to collectively bear arms for the purposes of this militia is what is guaranteed, not individual rights. So as I see it, the Fed government can pass whatever regulation it wants against individual arms holding (but I'm not saying it should, mind you).

BTW,

quote: Almost all gun control laws are unconstitutional because the point of the second amendment is to let us take out an oppresive federal goverment.

Well, it's a good thing most gun control laws are actually enacted at a state level, then. So "almost all" is also incorrect.

	29-05-2005 02:51									#51
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quote: And "Militia" has consistently been interpreted to refer to the national guard

Not really. The Supreme Court said it was so back in the 1930s, but since that time, Circuit courts have split, with some (the 5th in particular) saying it is an individual right. The Supreme Court has not decided among these differing opinions.

	29-05-2005 03:42									#52
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Maybe it's because i'm a non US, but hasn't the second outlived it's purpose ? As I understand it, it was a tool to prevent external enemies to take control over US and not as a tool to fight against disliked presidents since that is covered in other parts of the constitution.

Shotrly said, the second was reasonable when US was a feeble power, but with it's current position as unsurpassed, then the second is null and void ?

	29-05-2005 06:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And "Militia" has consistently been interpreted to refer to the national guard Not really. The Supreme Court said it was so back in the 1930s, but since that time, Circuit courts have split, with some (the 5th in particular) saying it is an individual right. The Supreme Court has not decided among these differing opinions.

In fact the Supreme has never taken on the 2nd Amendment. Even the most liberal member of Congress will not attack the 2nd head on. They just pass little laws here and there to chip aways our rights to bear arms.

	29-05-2005 07:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I believe self-defense is a basic right which the government ought not to take away from us.

Hell, I don't care if people carry handguns in public as long as they they have the proper training, permits, trigger locks so a stolen gun is useless, etc.

	29-05-2005 07:12									#55
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I know that there are several ways to lock guns so only the owner can fire a gun, but if I'm not wrong then it's fought harshly by NRA. Primarily because NRA thinks that everybody has the right to shoot anyone else, but besides this, what are their arguments ?

	29-05-2005 07:59									#56
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All you really have to do is look at other countries and how they deal with it, America's pretty damn unique its gun control crap.

Most other (western) countries have some form of gun control or another but people can still bear arms if they so wish.

Hell with the term bear arms, well its pretty vague. Couldn't just whoever argue every weapon down to regulatedness, except maybe a few brands of handguns or something. I mean in the end you're still got a right to "bear arms" don't you? It can't be unconstitutional when you can still bear arms surely?

	29-05-2005 08:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Primarily because NRA thinks that everybody has the right to shoot anyone else, but besides this, what are their arguments ?

I think they try to emphasize the "slippery slope" argument in which one form of gun control will lead to another until all guns are banned.

	29-05-2005 08:14									#58
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Guns should be banned...except for the hunting rifles that are used to hunt for food. Hand guns---->out. Only hunting rifles should be allowed, and have a lot of restrictions to them.

We should get rid of "The Right to Bear Arms." It's an obsolete rule made by our forefathers to help defend against England. And when was the last time the King George decided to invade our a**?



But keep guns in law enforcement, military, etc.

	29-05-2005 09:39									#59
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Does anyone else see the stupidity in thinking that an average Joe citizen with a handgun can defend himself against an Abrams tank?

	29-05-2005 10:38									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph In fact the Supreme has never taken on the 2nd Amendment. Even the most liberal member of Congress will not attack the 2nd head on. They just pass little laws here and there to chip aways our rights to bear arms.

Well that isn't true either. The Supreme Court in Miller (IIRC), back in the 1930s read the 2nd Amendment as a collective right. Though there hasn't been a Supreme Court case since then on the 2nd Amendment and no one is sure what to do with the old precedent.

One day the Supreme Court will have to clear things up.