09-06-2005 21:30									#31
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by alva

quote: 2. Im not ready to build a PC. So add on a $69 build fee from the local PC shop - though that comes with a 2 year warranty as well. Sounds pretty expensive, no nephew in the family that can do it for you for half the price?

No.

quote: DO NOT buy integrated graphics!! It's a waste of money..and if you're unlucky you might have some conflicts when you do add a real card

We've discussed this at some length elsewhere.

quote: To be honest, buying to upgrade later is, well, a myth. Buy what you need now and see what happens. At the moment there are 2 kinds of ram (DDR1 and DDR2) and soon we'll see the introduction of DDR3, none of which are inter-changable.

Well what i need now could probably be accomodated well enough by a P3 600 mhz, with say 128 meg. That would give us two PCs in the family, would speed up websurfing, would let me play HOI, vickie, CK etc.

But it doesnt seem like the wisest approach.

quote: Can't you get anything second hand? I just bought myself a 3 month old ATI 9800PRO for about 2/3 of new price.

I will have to ask the shop about that.

	09-06-2005 21:34									#32
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by snoopy369

quote: There's nothing wrong with a manufacturer PC tho - I think that, if you're talking about the sort of upgrade you are, you'll notice enough increase that you don't need to worry about the fine-tune details

Thats right - ive got a P2. (actually a K6-2 - yup, little old luddite me got an AMD machine before it was fashionable) Anything i get will be a huge jump.

quote: . Certainly if you can find something in a decent price, go for it - you'll get adequate performance for most purposes. Of course, any chance you get for gaming tuning - go for it; no integrated graphics if you can avoid it, but rather a dedicated card, and same for sound;

And im trying to get that, but balancing against price.

quote: and choose more RAM (up to 1gb at least anyway) over faster processor speed. RAM makes more difference than processor speed at the point we are at - heck, FSB (Front Side Bus) and other 'invisible' pipeline speeds and flowthroughs that are 'invisible' to you because they won't tell you the speeds unless you really dig deeply, matter more than processor speed. A 3.2ghz processor is largely a waste compared to 2.8ghz if the speed info goes from memory to processor is 333mhz

Im not looking at anything above 2.8

	09-06-2005 22:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark quote: DO NOT buy integrated graphics!! It's a waste of money..and if you're unlucky you might have some conflicts when you do add a real card We've discussed this at some length elsewhere.

And Alva told you the same as I did.

	10-06-2005 01:59									#34
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sigh!

LOTM - them pcs with integrated graphics are really cheap!

Spikey and Alva - Theyre junk.

LOTM - they can play anything other than an FPS thats out now. That gives me a backlog of games to play for years - I should have a new machine eventually.

Somebody - how about COTN (Children of the Nile)

Somebody else - they play COTN.

LOTM - Hah!

Spikey, et al - Its not just that, its that those machines are generally junky.

LOTM - Ok, let me try a shop


There now. Ive tried a shop. One thing Ive learned, is that even the quality name motherboards (ASUS, I think?) come with integrated sound and video in many cases. So AFAICT these are two SEPERATE issues (except that the ASUS etc motherboards, even if they come with integrated graphics, ALSO have a graphics slot). One issues is should I buy from a shop vs get a manufactured name brand PC. Second is what should my choices be as far as motherboards, video cards etc. Including whether I need to get a vid card rightaway or not.

Right now i have two questions to ask the shop. 1. have you had experience adding a vid card later to the motherboards you sell? (to address COT's issue about difficulty adding a vid card) 2. Do I save money (on the motherboard) by buying a motherboard WITHOUT integrated vid card?

	10-06-2005 02:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark There now. Ive tried a shop. One thing Ive learned, is that even the quality name motherboards (ASUS, I think?) come with integrated sound and video in many cases. So AFAICT these are two SEPERATE issues (except that the ASUS etc motherboards, even if they come with integrated graphics, ALSO have a graphics slot). One issues is should I buy from a shop vs get a manufactured name brand PC. Second is what should my choices be as far as motherboards, video cards etc. Including whether I need to get a vid card rightaway or not. Right now i have two questions to ask the shop. 1. have you had experience adding a vid card later to the motherboards you sell? (to address COT's issue about difficulty adding a vid card) 2. Do I save money (on the motherboard) by buying a motherboard WITHOUT integrated vid card?

I bought a PC during the holidays. A nice Athlon 64 3000+ with 512 MB. Unfortunately, I choose a Asus mobo with integrated graphics (a S3 irc). I said to myself: I'll be able to upgrade it later. Well, I quickly found out that Neverwinter nights wouldn't run on it (it doesn't support S3 video cards). And I also discovered that I badly wanted to play Vampires: the masquerade bloodlines. So I bought an ATI 9550 with 256 MB ddr. That's when I rediscovered the pleasures of PC gaming...

First of all, the ATI made my system crash all the time. I'm not sure the mobo is the culprit here. You see, its one of those hard to pinpoint and hard to solve problems.

Second, each time I installed or removed the ATI, my integrated network card stopped working. I think its because my mobo thinks that I installed another network card, so it shuts down the integrated one. The only solution was to reinstall Windows. Major pain in the ass.

I finally removed the ATI and bought another network card and now it works just fine. But I can't play NWN nor Vampires...

So my advice: don't buy a cheap mobo. Otherwise, you'll regret it.

	10-06-2005 08:05									#36
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That's the one thing one should not skimp on.

	10-06-2005 08:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo I bought a PC during the holidays. A nice Athlon 64 3000+ with 512 MB. Unfortunately, I choose a Asus mobo with integrated graphics (a S3 irc). I said to myself: I'll be able to upgrade it later. Well, I quickly found out that Neverwinter nights wouldn't run on it (it doesn't support S3 video cards). And I also discovered that I badly wanted to play Vampires: the masquerade bloodlines. So I bought an ATI 9550 with 256 MB ddr. That's when I rediscovered the pleasures of PC gaming... First of all, the ATI made my system crash all the time. I'm not sure the mobo is the culprit here. You see, its one of those hard to pinpoint and hard to solve problems. Second, each time I installed or removed the ATI, my integrated network card stopped working. I think its because my mobo thinks that I installed another network card, so it shuts down the integrated one. The only solution was to reinstall Windows. Major pain in the ass. I finally removed the ATI and bought another network card and now it works just fine. But I can't play NWN nor Vampires... So my advice: don't buy a cheap mobo. Otherwise, you'll regret it.

Dont buy an ASUS? Or dont buy a cheap ASUS? Or just dont buy an ASUS that has integrated graphics at all?

Are there really games out there that call for a specific Vid card, as opposed to just a certain amount of video memory?

COT had mentioned the issue of adding a vid card to a mobo that had integrated graphics - he had problems. I presume that by working with a shop, who have had experience, that would help.

	10-06-2005 09:02									#38
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Dont buy an ASUS? Or dont buy a cheap ASUS? Or just dont buy an ASUS that has integrated graphics at all?

ASUS mobos are great. Just don't buy the integrated crap. At least not the one I bought. Buy a decent mobo (either ASUS or GIGABIT) and a decent vid card, like the ATI 9550. That way, you'll be able to play Civ 4 Moreover, the people who will build your system for you will make sure everything works ok.

quote: Are there really games out there that call for a specific Vid card, as opposed to just a certain amount of video memory?

Like I said NWN simply doesn't work with S3 cards.

	10-06-2005 20:51									#39
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omg ddr 9000 ying yang plus k-7 integrated jizzle processor.

Who has time to figure out whether thats all the parts you want to play the friggin game, just buy an xbox 360 when it comes out.

	10-06-2005 21:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo ASUS mobos are great. Just don't buy the integrated crap. At least not the one I bought. Buy a decent mobo (either ASUS or GIGABIT) and a decent vid card, like the ATI 9550. That way, you'll be able to play Civ 4 Moreover, the people who will build your system for you will make sure everything works ok. Like I said NWN simply doesn't work with S3 cards.

I still havent played Civ3. Ive got a large backlog of games I havent played but want to that require no particularly sophisticated hardware. I do intend to ask the shop about the Mobo, vid card, upgradeability, etc.

	10-06-2005 23:05									#41
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Thing is they'll just tell you the way it should work. You should (if there is an AGP slot) be able to add a graphics card. This does not ensure much lameness will not ensue when you actually try it.

	10-06-2005 23:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Thing is they'll just tell you the way it should work. You should (if there is an AGP slot) be able to add a graphics card. This does not ensure much lameness will not ensue when you actually try it.

Well I presume that since i would probably be buying the vid card from them, they would offer at least some hints on dealing with whatever problems result. I would also expect that if lameness has resulted in the past, they would have heard complaints. And perhaps could warn me in advance. I mean I presume this is a a quality place Im dealing with. If its not, Id just as soon go back to buying from Dell or Compaq - crap parts they may use, but at least they have some reputation to protect.

	10-06-2005 23:18									#43
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Would you like to buy some real estate?

	10-06-2005 23:30									#44
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Btw, I have a ASUS K8V-MX motherboard. So it has a Via chipset, with a S3 integrated graphics. Definitely not the best in integrated graphics. (My father has a HP with Nvidia integrated graphics. And he can run almost anything, even Rome: total war and Far Cry.) The K8V-MX is not even on ASUS's website. I know, it looks fishy, but I contacted ASUS and it exists.

	10-06-2005 23:54									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Cheapest suggested Intel system they list is as follows:

"The Intel® Celeron D 320 (2.4GHz)
Asus P4SP-MX:
Standard motherboard with a Parallel port, serial port, 1AGP slot, 3 PCI slots, 4 USB 2.0 ports in the back and 2 available for the front. Onboard video, Onboard sound and built in 10/100 ethernet port for network or broadband internet. "


Id have to check the ASUS site for the flavor the IG, I guess. The crap manufacturers at least have Intel IG. Seems the quality Mobo makers sometimes use crap IG.


checked the above uses a SiS chipset. Your thoughts? I take it you recommend Nvidia?

Last edited by lord of the mark on 11-06-2005 at 02:05

	11-06-2005 10:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo ASUS mobos are great. Just don't buy the integrated crap.

You can always plug in an external video card.

quote: Originally posted by nostromo At least not the one I bought. Buy a decent mobo (either ASUS or GIGABIT) and a decent vid card, like the ATI 9550. That way, you'll be able to play Civ 4 Moreover, the people who will build your system for you will make sure everything works ok.

Usually, that means the computer works and not that it will run Civ 4 or whatever.

	11-06-2005 10:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "The Intel® Celeron D 320 (2.4GHz) Asus P4SP-MX: Standard motherboard with a Parallel port, serial port, 1AGP slot, 3 PCI slots, 4 USB 2.0 ports in the back and 2 available for the front. Onboard video, Onboard sound and built in 10/100 ethernet port for network or broadband internet. " checked the above uses a SiS chipset. Your thoughts? I take it you recommend Nvidia?

That looks like a good office box but not a good gaming box. You probably don't want a microATX board (that's what the MX suffix means) to have more room. External video and audio is probably better for gaming.

I still recommend an AMD Athlon 64 rig. You get the room to expand and it runs 32-bit applications faster.

	11-06-2005 13:29									#48
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Have you read LotM's posts? Athlon 64 is soooo unsuitable given his expressed preferences.

	11-06-2005 14:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark edit.... COT had mentioned the issue of adding a vid card to a mobo that had integrated graphics - he had problems. I presume that by working with a shop, who have had experience, that would help.

It should do, in that they will test the system works fine before selling it to you - or make it work by offering suggestions to the componants you've requested if they see a problem. Much of this depends on the skill of the builders

My prob was mainly due to me trying to upgrade a branded name pc that was also one of its low-range models.
With PC's like Packard Bell/Compaq/HP etc they deliberately make their pc's tricky to upgrade, especialy at the bargin basement end of their ranges.

So by using reasonable componants to build your own, you shouldn't have these kind of problems?

	11-06-2005 15:40									#50
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Right now i have two questions to ask the shop. 1. have you had experience adding a vid card later to the motherboards you sell? (to address COT's issue about difficulty adding a vid card) 2. Do I save money (on the motherboard) by buying a motherboard WITHOUT integrated vid card?

1. I never have any experience like that.

2. No. In fact mobos without integrated graphics are more expensive.

	11-06-2005 15:45									#51
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo I bought a PC during the holidays. A nice Athlon 64 3000+ with 512 MB. Unfortunately, I choose a Asus mobo with integrated graphics (a S3 irc).

This one?

If you buy an Athlon 64 Socket 939 is the way to go...

	11-06-2005 19:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That looks like a good office box but not a good gaming box. You probably don't want a microATX board (that's what the MX suffix means) to have more room. External video and audio is probably better for gaming. I still recommend an AMD Athlon 64 rig. You get the room to expand and it runs 32-bit applications faster.

My mobo is an ASUS K8V-MX (Socket 754) The MX means integrated graphics. I have a full tower (Antec Sonata).

	11-06-2005 21:13									#53
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by nostromo My mobo is an ASUS K8V-MX (Socket 754) The MX means integrated graphics. I have a full tower (Antec Sonata).

Well, you can certainly put a microATX board in a large tower case.

	13-06-2005 20:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Have you read LotM's posts? Athlon 64 is soooo unsuitable given his expressed preferences.

and my revealed preferences as well

	13-06-2005 21:14									#55
	Suffering from ads?

Sadcase.

	14-06-2005 03:06									#56
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in yet one further twist, QOTM says we should get a laptop, so POTM can get used to typing her assignments, wherever she is, and not write them out longhand first (which she prefers now). Now wait a minute I think, MY idea was the ADULTS get the new PC, and POTM inherits the dinosaur. I really dont want to have to ask POTM to borrow HER computer so I can play Victoria (or whatever) And besides, I thought both she and QOTM had said they dont like the keyboards on laptops. QOTM says she means we get a desktop now, and THEN a laptop in not too long. and that shes heard some laptops have better keyboards (i doubt shes thinking of a docking station)

So, this means shes halfway bought on to my idea of getting a second new computer in the foreseeable future - though i dont want it to be TOO soon, or it wont establish the upgrade cycle I want (I want a second new one when the new one I buy is about two years old, assuming i buy a difficult to upgrade piece of crap) It also raises the dreaded question of laptops.

OTOH since QOTM and I would get the crap new Desktop, and POTM would get the laptop, maybe the gaming qualities of the laptop are irrelevant.

	14-06-2005 03:54									#57
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Laptops are horrible. Their sole function is to give computer access on the move, at which they are rather good. People who buy laptops solely for their home make me scratch my head.

	14-06-2005 07:26									#58
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we're a little space constrained. Having THREE desktops (id really like to keep the dinosaur, for old games if nothing else) would be an issue. I dont know if they'll let POTM take a laptop to school, but I think they might. and QOTM thinks she might prefer to type her essays in bed, on the couch, at the dining room table, etc. The peripatetic sort, you know? In any case, if they agree on that (which they might not) thats probably gonna be that. Esp. after I get my powerful new desktop, equipped with Intel Integrated Graphics (TM) - or whatever.

By the way, I used to have a laptop for work, many moons ago in a job where I traveled alot. I got used to it, it wasnt so bad. In fact when I was back in the office I had a docking station instead of a desktop. It had a mouse that attached to the side, which was much easier to use than a trackball, though it was a pain setting it up on an airplane, in coach (it was a Compaq). Unfortunately I wasnt into games then. Civ or whatever would have made the long flights go quicker - and it was a company that wouldnt have minded so much that you installed a game, as long as you tolerated the travel.

	14-06-2005 07:27									#59
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How old is POTM?

Laptops are overkill at school at least until high school, upperclassman years, if not college.

	14-06-2005 07:38									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How old is POTM? Laptops are overkill at school at least until high school, upperclassman years, if not college.

shes 13, going into 8th grade in September.

Remember, this wouldnt be a laptop in addition to a desktop for her. To recap. Currently we have one desktop, hereinafter called the dinosaur (its a P2 266 - dont laugh - someday you'll be old and weak too) We are (I hope) about to buy a second desktop - lets say a P4 2.6 something like that. Spikey and I have a longrunning good natured argument going over what that should be (in terms of vid card, etc) (Actual purchase has been delayed by Bat Mitzvah expenditures) Now lets say we get the P4. POTM then gets the dino machine - which is essentially inadequate, and getting more so every day. So the question becomes - in say 6 to 10 months do we replace the dino with ANOTHER desktop, or with a laptop (keeping the dino for ancient games, if i can justify the use of space - not everyone in the DC area has such a big house, young jedi)

POTM has a friend in 8th grade who has a laptop, and I think this gave QOTM the idea. Also to get POTM away from writing essays out in longhand, which QOTM thinks is making things harder for her (shes in the GT program, the homework is massive, and its been a challenge, to say the least)