08-06-2005 22:18									#61
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quote: I suggest that you provide some proof of this casual assertion. I also suggest that anyone who habitually links or conflates homosexuality with paedophilia should expect to be treated with a great deal of contempt.

Why? As opposed to those who habitually link the Catholic church with all sorts of crimes, just because they do not like the Catholic church?

My point is rather simple. If the rape and abuse of these children were simply about power, why so many more boys abused than girls? Given that there are so many more with heterosexual attractions, and assuming that this same percentage also applies to the number of priests, as in the general population, than it makes no sense, that the percentage of boys abused to be so much more than the number of girls.

One would expected a preponderance of girls, given these assumptions. Yet that is not what we see, so another explanation needs to be found that better fits the facts.

	08-06-2005 22:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Given that there are so many more with heterosexual attractions, and assuming that this same percentage also applies to the number of priests, as in the general population,

That's a daft assumption right there.

	08-06-2005 22:31									#63
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Why, are you saying that there are far more gay priests than gay people among the general population?

If so, what percentages are you coming up with?

The only studies that I have seen have come up with figures of about 2.5 for the general population, and perhaps double for the priests.

So that's still only 5 percent of the priests who are gay, yet so many boys are abused than girls. The only way to explain that is to count the number of boys abused by each priest, and then it becomes clear, that the majority of the abuse cases are committed by a very few individuals.

	09-06-2005 00:04									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why? As opposed to those who habitually link the Catholic church with all sorts of crimes, just because they do not like the Catholic church?

Because molly provided reliable FACTS as to REAL offenses that the Catholic Church has committed.

Can you grasp the idea of using facts?

	09-06-2005 00:14									#65
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And it is a reliable fact that the vast majority of the abuse cases involve boys.

I did not accuse molly of bias until he accused me of bias, so don't give me that bull, Mr. Fun. After all, you are his biggest cheerleader, are you not?

	09-06-2005 00:21									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And it is a reliable fact that the vast majority of the abuse cases involve boys. I did not accuse molly of bias until he accused me of bias, so don't give me that bull, Mr. Fun. After all, you are his biggest cheerleader, are you not?

I do not deny the fact that the majority of victims are boys in this instance.


But you're deliberately avoiding confronting the other serious problems that molly has brought up.

	09-06-2005 00:25									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why, are you saying that there are far more gay priests than gay people among the general population? If so, what percentages are you coming up with?

I don't know what proportion of Catholic priests are gay (tho 50% has been reported in the media for newly ordinated Catholic priests in America), but my point was that you can't just assume the gay rate is the same for Catholics priests as for the population in general. It's pretty obvious why the career may seem more attractive to gays than straights.

	09-06-2005 01:30									#68
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especially considering how Priests are suppose to be celibate

and I at least assume that many homosexuals might, upon being told that to act on their sexuality is a sin, might look to do something where they have encouragement to be celibate...

so there being a large number of homosexual priests makes a lot of sense to me

JM

	09-06-2005 01:57									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi As for Molly's critiques of the priorities of the pope, I thought he railed on the church to deal with their pedophile abuses, the majority of the cases commited by priests whom have homosexual inclinations.

If by "he" you mean Ratzinger, that's categorically wrong. Ratzi blamed the victims and said it was all a conspiracy against the Church.

As for gay priests, the last priest I spoke with on the matter (who is not gay) estimated that probably around 40-50% of Catholic priests are homosexuals.

The higher abuse rate of boys is also easily explicable in that boys are much more accessible to priests than girls are. You don't hear much about "altar girls," after all. At any rate, there are also many cited instances of abuse against girls.

	09-06-2005 01:59									#70
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at 50% I must say I am a bit surprised at the unchangedness of church doctrine..

JM

	09-06-2005 02:03									#71
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Healthy dose of the 50% are guilt-ridden and self-loathing. That's why they're priests in the first place. Many of those are probably the most intolerant in terms of changing policy.

	09-06-2005 02:09									#72
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I have desires to be a preacher of some type, not because of any guilt or self-loathing...

I dont' because I would be really bad at it..

(of course, I am not catholic)

Jon Miller

	09-06-2005 02:14									#73
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I wasn't saying people only become priests out of guilt or self-loathing, but rather that catholic homosexuals who become priests do so out of guilt and self-loathing.

	09-06-2005 03:51									#74
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I don't believe Ratzinger said it was a conspiracy, just that the media were blowing it out of proportion to the number of actual cases, percentage-wise.

Anyway, it's silly to associate homosexuality with pedophilia. People who are sexually attracted to children (predominantly pedophiles are men, and most of them prefer boys though neither is universal) will frequently have no interest in adults of whatever sex the children they molest are. Nor are they typically attracted to the actual sexual characteristics of their targeted gender; I haven't done much research, but I've heard that most pedophiles find developed genitals, and especially pubic hair, unappealing. That's why they go after kids, it's a fetish thing. Preference for a certain gender is, afaik, just a matter of what specific fantasies the pervert in question entertains. Reading a more conventional sexual orientation into it makes about as much sense as assuming that a furry is big on animal rights.

	09-06-2005 04:09									#75
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Paedophiles are per definitionem preferentially attracted to prepubescents.

	09-06-2005 04:28									#76
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Yeah, I know it sounds obvious, but I'm just trying to point out that they're specifically attracted to traits that would not be considered attractive, or indeed at all normal, in adults. Indeed, they go after them specifically because they lack signs of sexual development. I don't know the preferences of gays (or straight women), but I assume they are not averse to a big dong and some amount of musculature. And speaking for myself, if I found breasts and hips unattractive I wouldn't go looking for women. It stands to reason that a guy who thinks otherwise doesn't have much interest in the adult version he retreats from.

	09-06-2005 08:39									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I don't believe Ratzinger said it was a conspiracy, just that the media were blowing it out of proportion to the number of actual cases, percentage-wise. Anyway, it's silly to associate homosexuality with pedophilia. People who are sexually attracted to children (predominantly pedophiles are men, and most of them prefer boys though neither is universal) will frequently have no interest in adults of whatever sex the children they molest are. Nor are they typically attracted to the actual sexual characteristics of their targeted gender; I haven't done much research, but I've heard that most pedophiles find developed genitals, and especially pubic hair, unappealing. That's why they go after kids, it's a fetish thing. Preference for a certain gender is, afaik, just a matter of what specific fantasies the pervert in question entertains. Reading a more conventional sexual orientation into it makes about as much sense as assuming that a furry is big on animal rights.

good post

	09-06-2005 20:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And it is a reliable fact that the vast majority of the abuse cases involve boys.

But not homosexuals.

Can't quite grasp the difference between paedophilia and HOMOSEXUALITY, can you Obi Gyn ?

Bigot.


As for linking the Catholic Church with crimes... well are saying it didn't provide a bolt hole for ex-Nazis and refugee Fascists ?

Are you suggesting that the Vatcian Bank has nothing to do with corruption ?

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church hasn't hidden from justice suspects wanted in connection with war crimes and genocide in Rwanda/Burundi ?

I'm hardly making it up am I ?



"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."