12-06-2005 03:38									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, it's because I have some brains in my head. Lord knows how you've been so brainwashed by the left, but RFK was a loser who, like his brother, is only thought of highly because he was shot.

Not really.

I will readily admit that he was short on accomplishments, but was well on his way to greatness.

However, in your ignorance, you're totally overlooking the effects he had on organized crime, civil rights, poor people, and not to mention, the Vietnam war. He gave all those areas a voice. He knocked Lyndon Johnson out of office.

It has nothing to do with "left brainwashing." I'd say you're more brainwashed by the right by the whole, "he was shot so nothing he did really matters crap," that comes from the right. Duh.

BRING IT

	12-06-2005 03:39									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui *gasp* I'd rather pick Carter!

How can you claim with a straight face, that Robby did not make any positive effort in regards to civil rights and understanding Vietnam War?

	12-06-2005 03:42									#93
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quote: However, in your ignorance, you're totally overlooking the effects he had on organized crime, civil rights, poor people, and not to mention, the Vietnam war. He gave all those areas a voice. He knocked Lyndon Johnson out of office.

He also authorized wiretapping on MLK, Jr. and was a nasty SOB, who was probably one of Hoover's favorite AG's.

The only reason he is remembered is because his name is "Kennedy" and he was a part of Camelot. You act if he was the only one calling for civil rights and halting escalation of Vietnam.

	12-06-2005 03:46									#94
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Yes, but that was in the earlier years. Bobby later grew up, his decision to criticize the Vietnam war was directly against his brother's. He later became one of King's greatest allys. He also turned against Joseph McCarthy, saying his with hunts against Communists went to far. This is a man who learned from his mistakes and corrected them.

	12-06-2005 03:47									#95
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Kennedy was loved by blacks, in a way nobody else could reach out to them. If you really want to know the relationship between him and King:

	12-06-2005 03:49									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Yes, but that was in the earlier years. Bobby later grew up, his decision to criticize the Vietnam war was directly against his brother's. He later became one of King's greatest allys. He also turned against Joseph McCarthy, saying his with hunts against Communists went to far. This is a man who learned from his mistakes and corrected them.

And? The guy was an AG (picked by his brother) and a Senator from New York. What exactly did he do except deal with the mob? Besides, you can't just erase what you did in the past.

He was blessed with a Kennedy name, which gave him a bigger mouthpiece than any other person on a similar career path. It's why Hillary gets so much press today, because of the Clinton name, not because she did anything.

	12-06-2005 03:55									#97
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Man, you sound like the Rush Limbaugh show, making alot of generalizations about something you're unsure about, or have only cursory knowledge. The fact about the mob is common knowledge. The amount of hardline prosecutions against the mob is well known.

You're just underestimating him because of his name. Bobby was not taken seriously when he first ran for office because of the exact thing you mentioned. He was shy, and timid, had no voice, but over the course of a few months, found his voice and stood on his own two feet. THe fact that his message was so much different from his brother's shows that. Even at times going against his brother's ideas.

Sorry Siddiqui, I first thought the same as you did, but when I investigated further, and saw the real story, I realized what this man was all about.

	12-06-2005 04:05									#98
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quote: The fact about the mob is common knowledge. The amount of hardline prosecutions against the mob is well known.

quote: What exactly did he do except deal with the mob?

---

quote: You're just underestimating him because of his name.

No, people overestimate him because of the name. They do the same with his brother, who is the most overrated President in history. They think RFK actually DID something about race relations and Vietnam. He didn't do **** except talk about it, which many people in the late 60s were doing, even big time Congressmen.

quote: I first thought the same as you did, but when I investigated further, and saw the real story, I realized what this man was all about.

And I originally though RFK was a man of substance, but then I investigated further and found he didn't do ****.

	12-06-2005 04:23									#99
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Listen, I'm no fan of LBJ, but one of the big tragedies of American history learning is how much credit the Kennedy brothers get for Civil Rights, while LBJ gets nada, when he was the one who pushed through and signed the Civil Rights Acts of 1964.

The reason LBJ stepped down wasn't because RFK, but it was something which was an inevitability to save the party. LBJ may have been unpopular for Vietnam, but the real reason that he'd never win was the few seconds he took to sign the Civil Rights Act. He was a Texas Democrat, his base of support came from the South, which is why JFK took him as his Veep. As soon as he passed Civil Rights for blacks, that support was gone. Without his base, he'd be dead, against Nixon or whoever else. He realized it and didn't want to see what happened to the Republicans in 1964 happen to the Dems in 1968.

I though LBJ messed up with Vietnam, threw good money after bad in his War on Poverty, and wasn't all that great an executive, but for damn sure he deserves praise for being the impetus behind finally granting substantive Civil Rights to blacks, while sacrificing his own political career (he had to know that there was no way he could survive).

And yet the Kennedy boys get all the praise.

	12-06-2005 04:25									#100
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Um, my appreciation of the Kennedys along with acknowledgement of their shortcomings, does not mean that I ignore LBJ's contributions and shortcomings as well.

	12-06-2005 04:32									#101
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Most people do.. because the Kennedy's get far, far, far too much credit from people. Such as people saying JFK would have passed Civil Rights if he lived (yeah right, why didn't he do it before then), or RFK being the biggest civil rights guy of the time... all BS. LBJ got it done and the Kennedys were just full of hot air.

	12-06-2005 04:36									#102
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Edit : wrong thread

	12-06-2005 04:54									#103
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LBJ is tainted by Vietnam, If it wasn't for Vietnam I bet many people would of considered him a great president because of the Civil rights Act and attempts at reform with the Great Society. I Agree that Kennedy is over-idolized. It's like with Reagan, Kennedy is liked because he was a great speaker, and so seemed greater than he really was. I think this country would be a better place today if most of LBJ's reforms hadn't been erased by Reagan.

	12-06-2005 05:02									#104
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I'd expect Dubya to win this, or end second after George Washington or something... So the best way to mock this would be to vote Clinton (all 3 votes), obviously!

Having said that, I voted for Elvis, Edison and MLK.

	12-06-2005 05:14									#105
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Einstein
Whashington
Bob Hope

Since this vote tries to take non us citizens into account, I think it's just fair to vote on those that aren't US citizens by birth.

	12-06-2005 07:00									#106
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Samuel Clemens: someone who wasn't full of himself, who took a humorous approach to life, and made very deep, thoughtful comments about society in general.


D

	12-06-2005 08:06									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, people overestimate him because of the name. They do the same with his brother, who is the most overrated President in history. They think RFK actually DID something about race relations and Vietnam. He didn't do **** except talk about it, which many people in the late 60s were doing, even big time Congressmen.

Nope. It's a double-edged sword. You're confusing your opinion with the reality of the matter of what happened. You don't give Hillary any credit BECAUSE OF her name. So, it cuts both ways. Back when Kennedy campaigned for Senator, initially he was not taken seriously, precisley because of his name. People called him a "carpetbagger," and he had never stood on his own two feet, and wasn't very good at the political scene at first. But he grew into his own man, and people began to respect him.

On his Presidential campaign, he was able to communicate to working classes, across racial lines, in a way that nobody else could.

	12-06-2005 08:08									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Most people do.. because the Kennedy's get far, far, far too much credit from people. Such as people saying JFK would have passed Civil Rights if he lived (yeah right, why didn't he do it before then), or RFK being the biggest civil rights guy of the time... all BS. LBJ got it done and the Kennedys were just full of hot air.

Sorry, you got it the other way around. The Civil Rights ideas were started precisley BY the Kennedy brothers. LBJ just continued what the Kennedys had already planned.

Plus, it's hard to pass legislation when, you know, somebody kills you.

	12-06-2005 08:11									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Listen, I'm no fan of LBJ, but one of the big tragedies of American history learning is how much credit the Kennedy brothers get for Civil Rights, while LBJ gets nada, when he was the one who pushed through and signed the Civil Rights Acts of 1964. The reason LBJ stepped down wasn't because RFK, but it was something which was an inevitability to save the party. LBJ may have been unpopular for Vietnam, but the real reason that he'd never win was the few seconds he took to sign the Civil Rights Act. He was a Texas Democrat, his base of support came from the South, which is why JFK took him as his Veep. As soon as he passed Civil Rights for blacks, that support was gone. Without his base, he'd be dead, against Nixon or whoever else. He realized it and didn't want to see what happened to the Republicans in 1964 happen to the Dems in 1968. I though LBJ messed up with Vietnam, threw good money after bad in his War on Poverty, and wasn't all that great an executive, but for damn sure he deserves praise for being the impetus behind finally granting substantive Civil Rights to blacks, while sacrificing his own political career (he had to know that there was no way he could survive). And yet the Kennedy boys get all the praise.

Where do you think the idea started? Kennedy couldn't pass the bill because the guy was DEAD in 1964. duh.

	12-06-2005 08:15									#110
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Johnson even said in his own words he was only continuing Kennedy's work:

quote: The assassination of John Kennedy in November 1963 left most civil rights leaders grief-stricken. Kennedy had been the first president since Harry Truman to champion equal rights for black Americans, and they knew little about his successor, Lyndon Baines Johnson. Although Johnson had helped engineer the Civil Rights Act of 1957, that had been a mild measure, and no one knew if the Texan would continue Kennedy's call for civil rights or move to placate his fellow southerners. But on November 27, 1963, addressing the Congress and the nation for the first time as president, Johnson called for passage of the civil rights bill as a monument to the fallen Kennedy. "Let us continue," he declared, promising that "the ideas and the ideals which [Kennedy] so nobly represented must and will be translated into effective action." Moreover, where Kennedy had been sound on principle, Lyndon Johnson was the master of parliamentary procedure, and he used his considerable talents as well as the prestige of the presidency in support of the bill.

	12-06-2005 08:19									#111
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And the main reason for Johnson leaving office was that he misrepresented how well the Vietnam war was going to the American people. People like Kennedy brought a voice and legitamacy to the reality of the situation, which that it wasn't going that well.

quote: Moreover, on at least two occasions, the antiwar movement dramatically affected policy. After 35,000 mostly young people besieged the Pentagon on 21-22 October 1967, Lyndon Johnson launched a public relations campaign that emphasized how well the war was going. When the Communists launched their seemingly successful nationwide Tet Offensive on 30 January 1968, most Americans felt that they had been deceived by their own government. That widespread public disaffection led to Johnson's decision on 31 March 1968 not to escalate further and not to stand for reelection. He also faced serious challenges for the nomination from antiwar senators Eugene McCarthy (D-Minn.) and Robert F. Kennedy (D-N.Y.).

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/domestic.htm

Johnson did alot of great work for those who have been oppressed or underrepresented, but the Vietnam war was his undoing and a tragic mistake and miscalculation on his part.

	12-06-2005 10:28									#112
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I went there before reading thru the thread. I debated voting both Ford and Carnegie, but decided for neither.

Edison, Washington, Reagan (just to mess with all the libs).

	12-06-2005 11:57									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Most people do.. because the Kennedy's get far, far, far too much credit from people. Such as people saying JFK would have passed Civil Rights if he lived (yeah right, why didn't he do it before then), or RFK being the biggest civil rights guy of the time... all BS. LBJ got it done and the Kennedys were just full of hot air.

Well unlike most people, I tend to have a more balanced view of both presidents, and JFK's brother. It's probably still too idealistic for your taste though.

	12-06-2005 18:54									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: He was Serbo-Croatian, but became a US citizen. Which makes him an American as well . Unlike you stuffy Europeans, we are willing to consider anyone who has become a citizen to be an American .

Gosh, Imran, which country has had an Indian Communist member of parliament and a descendant of Sephardic Italian Jews as Prime Minister ?

Comrade Sak:

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1524/15240750.htm

Hell, in this country, Jews can even become aristocrats- never mind golf club members.

With love, from stuffy Airstrip One.

	12-06-2005 19:30									#115
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I voted for Abraham Lincoln. Go to this website and cast your vote. Oh -- and you can vote three times -- all three times for the same person, or spread your three votes however you like. VOTE!

Samuel Clemens



Lincoln was a fraud, and LBJ was an idiot.

	12-06-2005 19:42									#116
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand and LBJ was an idiot.

Wasn't he from Texas ?


Yee-hah !

	12-06-2005 19:48									#117
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So? Have I ONCE said all people here were suited for their job? No. No, I haven't.

	12-06-2005 19:49									#118
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So? Have I ONCE said all people here were suited for their job? No. No, I haven't.

Jeez, who put the burr under your saddle, Slowpoke ?

	12-06-2005 19:50									#119
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Incidentally, I've just finished Robert Caro's "Master of the Senate," one of the best political biographies I've read.

Some random trivia on LBJ:

His principal financiers were Texas oil businesses, including a partnership called Brown and Root. Y'all might remember that name from the news, in terms of "Kelogg, Brown, and Root," a Halliburton subsidiary that got quite a bit of our corporate welfare in Iraq.

	12-06-2005 19:52									#120
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I voted FDR, JFK and Franklin. Most of those that're left I don't even like. Bill Gates??? Billy Graham??? Eeeecccch.