16-06-2005 09:24									#61
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You probably should have read the responses to his post...

	17-06-2005 18:43									#62
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MtG, you seem to acknowledge, then, that Polk did offer to buy the California, etc., and to settle the issue of the disputed territory peacefully before the Mexicans invaded. You must think Polk a fool for not preparing for war given the Mexican position that if Texas was annexed there would be war.

As to whether the outcome was a forseeable victory by the US, given our performance in the war of 1812, I don't think our victory was all that assured.

	17-06-2005 19:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I've got a dollar that says they're all Republicans.

I've got 10 that says they're al white!l

	17-06-2005 19:07									#64
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Thanks, MtG, I always have to break out my books on the Mexican-American War, as I don't have everything memorized in date order.

	17-06-2005 21:35									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker We need to have our history books updated. The atrocities against Natives, Mexicans, and in the Phillipines should be explained in more detail.

Unfortunately, a school board wouln't dare put it in lest they piss of conservatives who will start calling said school board America-haters by even contemplating that the great US of A was BAD sometimes.

	17-06-2005 23:16									#66
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I think Odin also needs to read the other posts in this threads... since his whinge is demonstrably false.

	17-06-2005 23:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Unfortunately, a school board wouln't dare put it in lest they piss of conservatives who will start calling said school board America-haters by even contemplating that the great US of A was BAD sometimes.

Where did you go to school. Even at my all white southern school with a graduating class of 74 kids, we learned all about those things. And I graduated over ten years ago. Just because they didn't spend the whole school year telling how horrible we are as Americans doesn't mean we didn't learn about them.


edit. I said all about. In reality, there was only enough time to go over even important things such as the Civil War very briefly. Started with the revolution went through the war of 1812 and the Mexican War. From there covered the civil war through reconstruction all the same chapter. Visited the Spanish American war and went on through the 20s. There just wasn't much time to stop and talk about how horrible we are. Don't even ask about world history in high school. Mrs. Tinkle wasn't a propaganda distributer hired by the goverment to indoctrinate teens to be mindless citizens, She was a middle aged woman tring to compress years of American history into a 50 minute class after lunch.

	17-06-2005 23:34									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, you seem to acknowledge, then, that Polk did offer to buy the California, etc., and to settle the issue of the disputed territory peacefully before the Mexicans invaded. You must think Polk a fool for not preparing for war given the Mexican position that if Texas was annexed there would be war. As to whether the outcome was a forseeable victory by the US, given our performance in the war of 1812, I don't think our victory was all that assured.

I have to agree with Ned. Texas asked to be annex and since it was an independent state it really wasn't any of Mexico's business. That Mexico threatened war with the US (a larger, more populus, and richer country) over the matter was pretty foolish. The US naturally responded by pre-planning for the war and so a chance to sieze vast amounts of land as part of the war's conclusion. Polk did in deed have expansion on his mind but he negotiated with the stronger British on the US-Canadian border so he could put al of his attention on using and abusing Mexico in the coming war.

	17-06-2005 23:55									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I think Odin also needs to read the other posts in this threads... since his whinge is demonstrably false.

I was talking about things like the war with Mexico, which is too often gloried as "Us saving Texans from the evil Mexican opressors" when reality was the settlers violated thier promises they gave to the mexican government for the right to setle there. It had more to do with protecting Anglo-Texan slaveowners than anything else.

	18-06-2005 00:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I was talking about things like the war with Mexico, which is too often gloried as "Us saving Texans from the evil Mexican opressors" when reality was the settlers violated thier promises they gave to the mexican government for the right to setle there. It had more to do with protecting Anglo-Texan slaveowners than anything else.

Hah, the original war had nothing to do with any "violation" of promises, Odin. It had to do with what we now call "States Rights." Santa Ana changed the constitution from one patterned along the lines of the US to one patterned along the lines of Spain. This reduced Texas from a state to an adiministrative province.

Two Mexican states revolted. Texas and one other. Santa Ana dealth with the other state first, then turned his eyes on Texas. When he was defeated, he conceded Texas independence and the border at the Rio Grande. However, this "treaty" was not approved by the Mexican legislature, prolonging the war until the US ended it.

	18-06-2005 01:57									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I was talking about things like the war with Mexico, which is too often gloried as "Us saving Texans from the evil Mexican opressors" when reality was the settlers violated thier promises they gave to the mexican government for the right to setle there. It had more to do with protecting Anglo-Texan slaveowners than anything else.

And that's one of the things previous posts have mentioned are taught about in high school...

	18-06-2005 02:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And that's one of the things previous posts have mentioned are taught about in high school...

Then you are being taught an anti-American lie. The cause of the revolt was the change in status of the state. The Mexican invasion was a result of the revolt, not something else.

	18-06-2005 03:23									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Hah, the original war had nothing to do with any "violation" of promises, Odin. It had to do with what we now call "States Rights." Santa Ana changed the constitution from one patterned along the lines of the US to one patterned along the lines of Spain. This reduced Texas from a state to an adiministrative province. Two Mexican states revolted. Texas and one other. Santa Ana dealth with the other state first, then turned his eyes on Texas. When he was defeated, he conceded Texas independence and the border at the Rio Grande. However, this "treaty" was not approved by the Mexican legislature, prolonging the war until the US ended it.

If you're talking about the Texan war for independence then actually it was about the abolition of slavery. Santa Anna, a former slave himself, outlawed slavery at which point those states controlled by slave owners revolted.

	18-06-2005 03:33									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Then you are being taught an anti-American lie. The cause of the revolt was the change in status of the state. The Mexican invasion was a result of the revolt, not something else.

The cause of the war was desire for territorial expansion, nothing more.

	18-06-2005 05:13									#75
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I have to agree with some others in here -- the education of American history has significantly improved.

The kind of history that Odin and others are lambasting had only been taught with older generations, going back before the changes were made.

	18-06-2005 05:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove If you're talking about the Texan war for independence then actually it was about the abolition of slavery. Santa Anna, a former slave himself, outlawed slavery at which point those states controlled by slave owners revolted.

Exactly.

	18-06-2005 05:39									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Then you are being taught an anti-American lie.

	18-06-2005 05:58									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, you seem to acknowledge, then, that Polk did offer to buy the California, etc., and to settle the issue of the disputed territory peacefully before the Mexicans invaded. You must think Polk a fool for not preparing for war given the Mexican position that if Texas was annexed there would be war. As to whether the outcome was a forseeable victory by the US, given our performance in the war of 1812, I don't think our victory was all that assured.

Tell ya what, Ned. I'll buy your house for $10,000.

Since you're obviously going to sell your house to me, I'm going to send a large group of armed men next door, waiting for you to decide to sell your house to me. You have until next week to sell. And oh, by the way, those people that are already there are the new tenants, I told 'em it was ok to move in a little early.

	18-06-2005 07:20									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove If you're talking about the Texan war for independence then actually it was about the abolition of slavery. Santa Anna, a former slave himself, outlawed slavery at which point those states controlled by slave owners revolted.

Perhaps, Dr. Strangelove, the change in status from a state to a province had something to do with the legality of the directive.

Regardless, we get the very same argument time and again from the MtG's of the world that the civil war was about States Rights. But in the case of the Texas revolt, I actually believe the Texans on this point. Most of the Americans entered Texas with Texas a state. This gave them some autonomy from the central government on matters such a slavery. The change in status was a big deal.

	18-06-2005 07:21									#80
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MtG, it is interesting that you seemed to have switched sides on the issues of the Old South when it is the Mexican central government acting in a tryanical manner.

	18-06-2005 07:23									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I have to agree with some others in here -- the education of American history has significantly improved.

Wouldn't know it from reading Ned's posts.

	18-06-2005 07:37									#82
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Man, I knew I would regret opening this thread. You can smell the stupid all the way over in the forum index.

	18-06-2005 07:38									#83
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A lucky someone has finally made it onto my ignore list due to his posts here.

	18-06-2005 07:51									#84
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Who, Ned? Join the club.

	18-06-2005 07:53									#85
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quote: This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

What did you say?

	18-06-2005 07:55									#86
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Mean...

	18-06-2005 07:55									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The cause of the war was desire for territorial expansion, nothing more.

We apparently were talking about two different things. I was talking about the Texan's revolt in 1836. You apparently are talking about the war of Mexican aggression in 1847.

	18-06-2005 07:57									#88
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I think this might shed some light on the issue, Ned.

http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/

	18-06-2005 07:59									#89
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Hee!

	18-06-2005 08:22									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Perhaps, Dr. Strangelove, the change in status from a state to a province had something to do with the legality of the directive. Regardless, we get the very same argument time and again from the MtG's of the world that the civil war was about States Rights. But in the case of the Texas revolt, I actually believe the Texans on this point. Most of the Americans entered Texas with Texas a state. This gave them some autonomy from the central government on matters such a slavery. The change in status was a big deal.

Errrrr...... We're talking about Mexico. I don't think they had the 9th and 10th amendment in their constitution. You can't use US law when discussing politics in Mexico.