16-06-2005 04:11									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Episode -1: Return of The Sith, dummy. Though, I don't think they went anywhere. Indeed, I've long suspected that the Sith are infact Vorlons. (cookie for somewhat obvious reference) Anyone seen Clone Wars? Quite fun.

Thanks for the name-calling, retard.

	16-06-2005 04:21									#62
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Notice how Anakin restored balance to the force by eradicating both sides except for his son and daughter? Now that's the kind of wholesome entertainment that I want my kids to watch!

	16-06-2005 04:27									#63
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Eh, no, he restored balance to the force when he killed the Emperor and returned to the light side.

	16-06-2005 04:28									#64
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his son and daughter are on the good side and alive, so he didnt eradicate both sides

	16-06-2005 04:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Eh, no, he restored balance to the force when he killed the Emperor and returned to the light side.

Or rather we have no idea whether he, Luke, or someone else was actually the prophesied "Chosen One".

	16-06-2005 04:30									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or rather we have no idea whether he, Luke, or someone else was actually the prophesied "Chosen One".

Actually, I'm pretty confident this is what Lucas intended. Misread the prophecy was... but incorrect, it was not.

	16-06-2005 04:34									#67
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It seems Luke was closer to being a prophesied one.

	16-06-2005 04:36									#68
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As in the other thread, Occam's Razor. The prophecy was about Anakin. Anakin fulfilled the literal interpretation of the prophecy. Ergo, it was about Anakin.

	16-06-2005 04:39									#69
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Literal interpretation? How does 20 years of Sith rule = 1000+ years of Jedi rule, if that is the test for balance? And, as Vader, he turns light and tries to kill the Emperor, leaving no Sith and, at least, one Jedi.

	16-06-2005 04:41									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Literal interpretation? How does 20 years of Sith rule = 1000+ years of Jedi rule, if that is the test for balance? And, as Vader, he turns light and tries to kill the Emperor, leaving no Sith and, at least, one Jedi.

No, balance != equal Sith and Jedi. Balance = no dark side. The prophecy also said, IIRC, that he would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force.

	16-06-2005 04:43									#71
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quote: Balance = no dark side.

Why would that bring balance to the force? And seeing as how Luke turned Vader and then in the EU killed the Emperor, wouldn't it make more sense to be him?

	16-06-2005 04:48									#72
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The Jedi code is all about serenity peace blah blah blah etc. The light side is balanced. And as I stated in the other thread, I believe the writers of Dark Empire unknowingly broke the plot device Lucas had already written.

	16-06-2005 04:50									#73
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But is the light side REALLY balanced? Wouldn't true balance be neither fully light side nor fully dark side? And as I said, I don't think Lucas had written that plot device until it came time to write out the script for TPM.

	16-06-2005 04:51									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But is the light side REALLY balanced?

Yes. According to the Jedi philosophy we get force-fed.

	16-06-2005 04:56									#75
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I think the lesson of the original trilogy is that Luke doesn't necessarily go the light side route entirely. He doesn't let go of his attachments. In fact, they may have made him stronger.

And seeing the Jedi in the prequals, I'm not sure they were meant to be totally emulated .

	16-06-2005 04:59									#76
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quote: I think the lesson of the original trilogy is that Luke doesn't necessarily go the light side route entirely. He doesn't let go of his attachments. In fact, they may have made him stronger.

They sent him skirting the dark side. The lightsaber battle on DS2? He starts pwning when he gets pissed about his sister, then realizes "oh **** this is dark side stuff" and says "I'm not fighting you anymore because I am TEH JEDI". It's when he lets go of everything that he's victorious (just like with Obi-Wan on DS1).

	16-06-2005 05:05									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: I think the lesson of the original trilogy is that Luke doesn't necessarily go the light side route entirely. He doesn't let go of his attachments. In fact, they may have made him stronger. They sent him skirting the dark side. The lightsaber battle on DS2? He starts pwning when he gets pissed about his sister, then realizes "oh **** this is dark side stuff" and says "I'm not fighting you anymore because I am TEH JEDI". It's when he lets go of everything that he's victorious (just like with Obi-Wan on DS1).

You miss it. It is Luke's attachment to his father and his knowledge that he KNOWS that there is some good in him. A good non-attachment Jedi wouldn't hold to such fantasies.

If Luke just relied on his light side powers, he would have gotten smoked. Luke, though, relied on his faith in his father. His familial attachment.

	16-06-2005 05:09									#78
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That's not the same sort of attachment as "I'll do anything to save my wife". Faith in the good in people is part of the light side of the force.

	16-06-2005 05:15									#79
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Attachment is always frowned upon by the Jedi. That is why they take kids away from their families. Anakin started to fall, because of his attachment to his mother, after all.

	16-06-2005 05:21									#80
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Yes, and it wasn't that sort of attachment after the "I am a Jedi" thing.

	16-06-2005 05:31									#81
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I think Luke's attachment to his father was not something that would be deemed kosher by the Jedi. You are not supposed to love. You are not supposed to feel strong emotions for others.

As for the Luke won when he let go... if Vader hadn't turned, Luke would have been a charred crisp. Luke tells the Emperor he has won, only to have the Emperor tell Luke, the Hell you have. Only Luke's attachment to his father saved him.

Luke did not go fully light or dark, but stayed in the middle, realizing that attachment does not have to lead to the Dark Side... it just has to be in moderation.

	16-06-2005 05:32									#82
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quote: I think Luke's attachment to his father was not something that would be deemed kosher by the Jedi. You are not supposed to love. You are not supposed to feel strong emotions for others.

Hell, it wasn't deemed kosher by the Jedi. Specifically Obi-Wan.

However, it changed after his "I am a Jedi" thing - it was a different attachment.

Luke didn't "walk the middle" - he skated the edge, realized he was about to get burned, and went 100% ls.

	16-06-2005 05:38									#83
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He did skate the edge, then let go, but not fully because when getting singed his faith in his father comes out. He doesn't let go like Obi-Wan.

So he relies on his father to turn. His faith shows his attachment, so while skating both edges, he comes to the middle. To a balance.

This is further backed up by in the EU, where Luke takes a wife, Mara Jade (which would sooo not be approved by the Council).

	16-06-2005 05:42									#84
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quote: He did skate the edge, then let go, but not fully because when getting singed his faith in his father comes out.

No. He stops when he realizes that he's in the dark side and then decides not to fight at all. The trigger is just seeing that Vader's hand is mechanical, just like Luke's.

quote: This is further backed up by in the EU, where Luke takes a wife, Mara Jade.

That is simply because the EU writers didn't know about the prohibition of marriage. Corran Horn was married way earlier, and the books say that he comes from an old family of Jedi.

	16-06-2005 05:52									#85
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IIRC in post SW movies, Luke actually turned to the Dark Side and somehow managed to bring himself back or something like that.

	16-06-2005 05:53									#86
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There are no post SW movies.

You're thinking of the Dark Empire comics.

	16-06-2005 05:55									#87
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Oops yeah I was referring to those graphic novels. What I actually meant was post (SW-movies) as in after the ROTJ. My bad, sorry

	16-06-2005 05:56									#88
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Also I'd love to see movies about Admiral Thrawn

	16-06-2005 05:58									#89
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quote: No. He stops when he realizes that he's in the dark side and then decides not to fight at all. The trigger is just seeing that Vader's hand is mechanical, just like Luke's.

And then instead of accepting his death, like Obi-Wan did, he calls out to his father to turn. He relies on the faith of his father. Luke thinks he's being all cool by saying I'm not going to fight, so you don't have me as an apprentice, but then Luke soon realizes that wasn't all that bright, because without his saber, the Emperor has him at his mercy.

If it was turning to full light side that wins, you'd expect that the Emperor would say, damn, I've lost him, I've lose everything.. etc, etc. But his non-fighting stance is not enough to win the day (in fact, by itself, it would have killed him).

It is his attachment to his father that saves him.

quote: That is simply because the EU writers didn't know about the prohibition of marriage. Corran Horn was married way earlier, and the books say that he comes from an old family of Jedi.

And the EU is canon, as said. Horn was married way earlier? He was married after joining Luke's Jedi Academy. And from the databanks I get that his lineage from Nejaa Halcyon was secretive. It seems that Halcyon's son Valin was hidden, and while it was from the Empire during the Clone Wars, it may have also been to the Jedi Council as well.


edit: Then again, it's all opinion anyway.

	16-06-2005 06:16									#90
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http://www.atomfilms.com/af/content/battle_hoth