20-06-2005 01:51									#31
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also note: spain, italy, france, do not include lower level leagues.

	20-06-2005 01:53									#32
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the netherlands almost had 5 million. (no cups, or lower leagues included)

	20-06-2005 01:55									#33
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Hmmm... It looks like I was wrong. Pro baseball in the US probably totals more than soccer in Europe, but the worldwide figures are probably lopsided. That British number is pretty huge.

	20-06-2005 01:57									#34
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so weve got what, like 70 million right there?

then you need to add leagues in: Portugal, Switzerland, Eastern European countries, Nordic Countries, baltic countries, balkans, Turkey.

then you need to add UEFA cup games, and Champion league games (champion league games is easily 5 million)

	20-06-2005 02:23									#35
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http://football.guardian.co.uk/news...1059366,00.html

quote: Baseball or Football: which sport gets the higher attendance? "As a Scotsman now living in the United States I am sick of the Yanks prattling on about how baseball is the ultimate sport," says Neil McIntosh. "In particular, my boss claims that the total number of people who attend Major League Baseball games (regular season) in a year is greater than the total number of people who attend all regular season games in each top league in Europe and South America combined. Can you resolve this argument?" "Neil McIntosh can rest easy - he's won his bet," says a confident-sounding Dr Tim Burgis. And here's the proof. "According to the Guinness book of records the all-time season record for baseball attendances (both American League and National League) is 70,618,731," says Tim, along with hundreds of others. The figure might sound impressive, but it's trounced by all the professional leagues in Europe, as Tim explains. "Taking a close look at: the European Football Statistics website for the 2001-2002 season (2001 season for the really cold places!), the total attendance at European top flight games was 83,569,426 (this figure doesn't include Turkey as they didn't have full info for that league)," he says. "Clearly no need to include the South American leagues to outstrip the baseball total." "Having said all that, the comparison is unfair - the total population of Europe dwarfs that of the USA so let's compare Europe's best supported league (the Premiership) with baseball - taking into account the populations of the two countries," he adds. "The CIA world casebook gives the US population as 290,342,554 (2003 estimate), the 2001 UK census gives the population of England as 49,138,831. The total Premiership attendance for 2001-2002 was 13,090,228 which would scale to 77,345,149 for a US-sized population - again more than the US's figure." Furthermore, as Paul McDevitt points out, a lot of US attendance figures are inaccurate. "US attendances include corporate support and season-ticket holders - even though lots of them don't show up" he says. "A recent Toronto Blue Jay game was a case in point. The crowd was less than 10,000 - the place looked empty - yet they announced an attendance of some 20,000 which would be just under half the stadium."

	20-06-2005 02:38									#36
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Oh well. Now I don't feel like such a loser for spending the day in the varsity library.

Americans don't like F1 because other people win at it and they don't control it.

	20-06-2005 02:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Hmmm... It looks like I was wrong. Pro baseball in the US probably totals more than soccer in Europe, but the worldwide figures are probably lopsided. That British number is pretty huge.

It's our religion. What did you expect?

	20-06-2005 03:18									#38
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The Premiership scales to equal attendance to MLB (I expect 75 million + this year for MLB and wouldn't be surprised to see 78 million), but your lower tier leagues are better attended than Minor League Baseball. That's what's pretty huge.

	20-06-2005 03:35									#39
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I nearly went to this race today, they were passing out free tickets to gov't employees here in Indy. My wife is out of town, so I went to see her instead. This place is really up in arms I expect nothing but this on local sports talk radio for the next week.

	20-06-2005 03:35									#40
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Spot on about the Jays BTW. I've been to games where that has happened.'

Add to that, the fact that Premier League Clubs only play 50 or so games a season depending on how the cups go.

Football dwarfs every other sport in popularity. People in North America just don't realize how big it is. Even tribesmen from the Congo know who Beckham is.

	20-06-2005 06:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Americans don't like F1 because other people win at it and they don't control it.

QFT

	20-06-2005 09:22									#42
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I don't recall NASCAR or Indy car putting together such an extreme ****up. It could use some American control, apparently.

I just read several articles on this, but at a minimum, 120,000 fans got ripped off to the tune of about $100 apiece. Their tickets should be refunded, and they should be given a free ticket to a future race of their choice. A lot of people came from overseas and across the country to see this.

	20-06-2005 09:26									#43
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quote: I don't recall NASCAR or Indy car putting together such an extreme ****up. It could use some American control, apparently.

Which it has managed to do without since it started, with no ill effect. You have to realize Dan, that F1 is a lot harder than American racing. It's the elite high performance car circuit. There simply isn't anything better. Schumacher could easily wipe the floor with Indy racing or CART or whatever they're calling it now.

But yes, the tickets should be refunded.

	20-06-2005 09:29									#44
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If you can't even put on a show, then it's pathetic. Call it the greatest racing sport in the world all you want, but screwing up this bad is hard to do. Proof is in the pudding. The Americans would put on a good show at all costs.

The promoters of this race should be arrested and thrown in jail.

	20-06-2005 09:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by atawa You dont have enough people in your country for that to be true I'm affraid

I believe he means per race. NASCAR stadiums are massive. I don't know why the people on the top row go to races... well, except to drink beer in the sun .

	20-06-2005 09:53									#46
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quote: If you can't even put on a show, then it's pathetic. Call it the greatest racing sport in the world all you want, but screwing up this bad is hard to do. Proof is in the pudding. The Americans would put on a good show at all costs.

So one real problem in 50 years? Haway man!

	20-06-2005 09:59									#47
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Michelin and F1 just killed Father's Day.

	20-06-2005 10:13									#48
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I still don't see why this should immediately spell the death of F1. They should refund the ticket take.

	20-06-2005 10:32									#49
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The fans bought from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, not the F1 organization. If F1 doesn't open up its checkbook in a major way to fix this outside of the contract, what track in the US would deal with them? We're talking big enough money for lots of lawsuits.

F1 proved itself to be a mickey mouse sport in the Mecca of racing with people (the racetrack operators) who know how to put on a race. It doesn't really matter to me, but F1 just lost hundreds of millions of dollars because they couldn't figure out a fair scoring for this race.

Last edited by DanS on 20-06-2005 at 10:57

	20-06-2005 12:15									#50
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quote: Attorneys at dawn? Joie Chitwood III, the President of Indianapolis Motor Speedway, has hinted that the problems at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway today could lead to legal actions. Chitwood said that the Speedway would be looking at what it will do with regard to the sanctioning fee paid and whether or not it would be asking the Formula One group for a refund. They has also been talk about whether the Speedway might void its contractual arrangements with Formula One. "It's premature to be discussing that right now," Chitwood said. "What occurred today was something we were not prepared for. We invested a lot of time and effort in preparing this property for a world-class racing event. The inability to have control over the actions today to say it's a disappointment is an understatement. Everyone here at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway prides themselves on producing world-class events. The fact we had no control over what occurred today is our greatest disappointment. We feel as victimized as the fans do in what they witnessed today. We had no control over the ability to stage an event. The people who had the ability to control things today were the FIA, Formula One and Michelin. Chitwood said that the Speedway has yet to decide whether or not to offer refunds to the fans. "We're going to analyze our situation," he said. "We're probably going to respond in the coming days. There are a number of questions like that we will have to sit down and look at." Chitwood said that the events at Indianapolis were "a major setback" but said that he hoped the situation was repairable "I hope it is," he said. "I'm not sure; I hope it is."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15072.html

	20-06-2005 12:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by atawa You dont have enough people in your country for that to be true I'm affraid

NASCAR is by far and a way the world's most popular motor sport based upon the numbers of people who attend races and watch it on TV. We're talking a 2 to 1 margin world wide with the next closest competitor on a world wide scale. NASCAR has that many races with that many people paying to watch it.

	20-06-2005 12:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I don't recall NASCAR or Indy car putting together such an extreme ****up. It could use some American control, apparently. Which it has managed to do without since it started, with no ill effect. You have to realize Dan, that F1 is a lot harder than American racing. It's the elite high performance car circuit. There simply isn't anything better. Schumacher could easily wipe the floor with Indy racing or CART or whatever they're calling it now. But yes, the tickets should be refunded.

F1 tends to be a very poor show and that's why it has fewer fans and its fans are less die-hard. The big money makers understanding marketing and slow down the cars because the fans want to see the cars. That's why stock cars and others have capped speeds and refuse to adopt new technologies because doing so will speed up the cars thus lessoning the show experience for the fans. Racing is a show to make money and if the fans aren't happy then they don't buy tickets.

The added benifit is you cap the arms race and make it cheaper for more teams to create cars and compete so that the field is always full. There are always more cars who want to race then there are spots on the track. That means people always get kicked out in the trails and gride is always packed with the legal limit of race cars. That's once again part of making it a good show and keeping the fans interested. F1 hasn't figured that out and that's why they're struggling in many countries.

Lastly most types of auto racing are highly specialized and few drivers can make the jump from one type to another without a lot of pratice. Schumacher likely wouldn't do very well on an oval track with cars which are designed for very different purposes.

	20-06-2005 13:34									#53
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quote: Schumacher likely wouldn't do very well on an oval track with cars which are designed for very different purposes.

I am sure the reciprocal is true.

	20-06-2005 14:08									#54
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Yes, that was my point. I said "most types of auto racing are highly specialized and few drivers can make the jump from one type to another without a lot of pratice".

BTW now that there is a brand new F1 facility in China (for the first time ever) I expect to see F1's attendance numbers go up since there are now 1.2 billion additional potential customers. Last I saw NASCARS numbers were king of the auto racing though simply because there are tons of drunking red necks who will drive hundreds of miles just to watch their favorate cars drive around in a circle for hours.

NASCAR has had recent successes expanding its audience into Latin America though so that potentially opens up another profitable market for the racing series.

	20-06-2005 15:02									#55
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quote: F1 hasn't figured that out and that's why they're struggling in many countries.

AFAIK F1 is only struggling in the US because they rather watch cars drive perfect ovals all the time......because of the rules change this season F1 has become a lot more interesting to watch and in EU and japan is still the biggest thing around...after that GP moto (TT - Assen this weekend have to work 40 hours in 3 days there)...

and you might be right that people like to see the cars (thus F1 is to fast) but nascar ****s it up with its tracks...i think there very few peopl in EU that will like nascar over F1

	20-06-2005 15:43									#56
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I agree that oval tracks are boring but they were very smart about it. One of the big problems with the complex course races is that the cars are not fully viewable to the people in the stands at all times. Thus there are certain parts of the race which the fans couldn't see prior to the invention of those big electronic screens. NASCAR's idea was to make the track smaller and oval shaped like a Roman chariot race so that everyone could watch the whole race start to finish and always see every crash, every time the cars bump or rub togehter, every time the sparks fly. In short they tried to make it like a Roman chariot race because they knew the audience would get more into it with a little more drama which was in full view.

Cynical but it sells tickets. I prefer touring car championships or rally racing but the red necks have been raisd on this like an Italian on soccer/football so they'd never accept major changes to the track designs and other stuff that have been set in stone since well before WW1. The EU doesn't have the same historical baggage so the results were totally different FIA was able to dominate.

F1 does have a problem with a narrow field in general though it is most accute in the US. F1 costs a lot more and FIA often faces charges that certain manufacturers can pay FIA for rules changes in their favor thus leading to certain teams winning simply because their opponents cars have been disqualified. That's kind of dirty and underhanded. Plus there is a money problem with F1 because F1 has let itself become a no holds bared and no cost capped sport thus factory backed teams can throw enough money at their cars and build up sizable leads even if their driver isn't as good.

NASCAR and Stock car go to extraordinary lengths to make sure cars are virtually identical using the same engines, transmitions, breaks, etc so that the cars are as evenly matched as possible. That means the main difference is the skill of the driver rather then the technical trickery of his car. NASCAR and Stock car were very much like F1 up until the mid 1960's but the authorities decided to standardize things since two or three factory teams were winning all the races and most of the other teams were going bankrupt or just losing interest. The big problem was the rising costs to run a team since the factories were introducing more and more expensive racing technology which the little guys couldn't keep up with. It was decided that for the good of the sport they had to keep costs down so these independents could continue to race other wise you'd end up with races were only a handful of teams were bothering to race. Who'd pay for that?

I guess F1 is finding out in the US right now.

	20-06-2005 16:30									#57
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quote: UNITED STATES GP - SUNDAY - RACE REPORT Thumbs down for Formula 1 The thumbs of the fans in the grandstands at Indianapolis were all pointing downwards at the end of a ridiculous United States Grand Prix. Fingers in the paddock will be pointing in other directions as the parties involved try to throw mud at one another about who is responsible for this debacle. The problems were not insurmountable and a little compromise and understanding would have saved the day for the race fans of America and the TV fans around the world. But for whatever reason that chance was wasted by inflexible views and a total disregard for the fans. The fact that the 20 cars took part in the parade lap meant that F1 did manage to fulfil its contractual obligations to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway - but it does not mean that the sport fulfilled its moral obligation to the crowd. With an average ticket price of $100 and a crowd of 130,000 crowd (up around 10,000 on last year) this amounted to little more than a $13m heist. It left Indianapolis owner Tony George with no real choice but the agree to give the fans their money back or at least offer them free tickets for 2006. Except that there is no reason why there will be a race in the United States in 2006. And no reason why any other promoter in the United States will go near Formula 1 in the future. What was needed on Sunday in Indianapolis was good governance and what we saw was completely the opposite. Michelin made a mistake. They admitted as much and offered solutions to the problem which they had unwittingly created. The FIA and Ferrari could have compromised, could have accepted a change of tyres or a makeshift chicane. Of course, one can argue that the rules are clear and that they should be followed. But that is not the point. The right thing to do would have been to have accepted a solution which did not leave the sport damaged as it now is. For whatever reasons they chose to sacrifice the sport rather than adopt a practical solution and muddle through to minimise the damage. Perhaps they did not think that the Michelin runners would do what they said that they would do and withdraw from the race, but the point was made on several occasions in the hours leading up to the Grand Prix and it was clear that when one looked at the problem of legal liabilities in the United States of America, the teams really had no choice but to park the cars. Michelin would not - could not - guarantee the safety of the tyres. The FIA said that Michelin runners would have to stop every 10 laps or drive at half speed through the troublesome Turn 13. Ferrari and the FIA both refused to have a chicane. If it was all a big poker game, the FIA and Ferrari bet the farm and they lost. Everyone had elements in their arguments which had merit but as the clock ticked on towards the start time, no-one had the interests of the fans foremost in their minds. And that is the charge that lies on the doormat in Maranello and at 8 Place de la Concorde in Paris. Even the great deal maker Bernie Ecclestone was impotent to solve this one and he must now go back to the shareholders in his company and explain himself. The FIA President Max Mosley has charmed the FIA delegates for more than 10 years but if no-one asks questions after this, the federation's credibility will disappear as quickly as did the fans at Indy. We need explanations as to why this was allowed to happen. But there is nothing new under the sun. In 1926 the Grand Prix de l'ACF was run at Miramas for three cars. The sports governing body at the time, the AIACR, decreed that there would be another new formula, brought about by the alarming advances in speed made by the manufacturers but the new rule drove the manufacturers away. The organisers were forced to run the race and there were three cars. Two failed and Jules Goux was the only classified finisher. It was the nadir of Grand Prix racing in the 1920s. Indianapolis 2005 is the nadir of modern F1. "My general feeling is what Bill France Jr of NASCAR would have done in the same situation," said Mike Mulhern, a reporter from the Winston Salem Journal. "He has been in this type of crisis three or four times in the past when drivers have been injured when tyres blew. He has always had a back-up plan. The race has always gone ahead with a full field. If Bill France was here today the 14 drivers who parked their cars would be history. "This could kill Formula 1 in America. It has been on the ropes for a long time. It has a credibility problem. This was stupid, really stupid. There is no excuse for not having a Plan B, for not putting on a show and running the race. It is arrogance and stupidity that has caused this. It shows no respect for the people watching in the grandstands and on TV. It is slap in the face for the US public." Michael Schumacher won the race but this was so hollow a victory that even the Grand Canyon could not have created such booming echoes.

http://www.grandprix.com/race/r740racereport.html

	20-06-2005 19:05									#58
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quote: AFAIK F1 is only struggling in the US because they rather watch cars drive perfect ovals all the time...

I really doubt that's the case. If this kind of bush league behavior can happen on race day, I can only imagine how F1 finds ways to alienate otherwise positively disposed American fans the other 364 days of the year.

quote: NASCAR is by far and a way the world's most popular motor sport based upon the numbers of people who attend races and watch it on TV.

I would doubt the watch on TV part of that sentence.

	20-06-2005 19:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin NASCAR is by far and a way the world's most popular motor sport based upon the numbers of people who attend races and watch it on TV.

Based on track attendance maybe, but that's at least in part because only American geography and infrastructure supports such huge crowds. Europe simply doesn't have room for such huge visitor numbers (still, I believe the most popular tracks such as Silverstone draw around a quarter of a million visitors, which is on the same level as the most popular Nascar races if I'm not mistaken).

Based on TV audience however, Formula One is much, much more popular. It's an oldish source but in 1998 the Economist reported a television audience of 5.5 billion for F1. That's cumulative but it still averages to 300 million viewers per race. And that's just the races themselves. The total cumulative viewership of any F1-related TV program (training, qualifiers, news reports, etc) in a season is in the 50 billion viewers range (as reported by the BBC for 2001). A more recent and conservative source puts F1 at 162 million viewers per race on average.

Nascar is frequently quoted as having about 75 million fans in total and a TV audience of 275 million viewers annually. The most-watched Nascar race ever only drew 18 million viewers (this from the same source that puts F1 at 162 million viewers per race on average, almost 10 times as much).

	20-06-2005 19:57									#60
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quote: That's cumulative but it still averages to 300 million viewers per race.

As I read, F1 halved that per race viewership estimate to 150 million per race. Given this, I seriously doubt their numbers.