22-06-2005 06:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As opposed to the inorganic food.

You are not clever.

	22-06-2005 07:40									#32
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They've been subsidising Agathon?

Whatever on Earth for???

	22-06-2005 07:46									#33
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Countries don;t subsidize the crops they are most competative in that much-only those that would get crushed, like US sugar farmers, who would be wiped out without subsidies, or the US shrimp business, that would be run out of business by brazil, or the Japanese rice industry, which would get crushed by China.

Cheap US corn and grains are already driving many small mexican farmers out of business, cause Mexico does not subsidize agriculture to a great degree.

	22-06-2005 11:15									#34
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4117590.stm

Maybe we can finally deal good blows at this monstrosity after all.

Blair is on a good track!

	22-06-2005 11:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa How do you think farmers that, until now dependent on subsidies, can increase their expenses and lower their subsidies, eh?

That sounds suspiciously like their problem and not mine. My problem is these farmers keep spounging money I'd rather see go to education and health care. I have to sink or swim in my job so why do farmers feel the tax payers owe them a living when the market says we have way to many farmers?

	22-06-2005 13:01									#36
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I posted this in the other ag subsidies thread we have floating around but I'll do it here too. This is an article in the current issue of the Economist which talks about agricultural subsidies world wide and who the worst offenders are.

Believe it or not as a percentage of GDP Turkey is the world's biggest subsidizer of agriculture. The list is:

1. Turkey
2. Switzerland
3. Japan
4. EU 15
5. Mexico
6. Poland
7. US
8. Canada
9. Australia

It stops after #9 so I assume those are the big offenders when it comes to subsidies.

http://www.economist.com/agenda/dis...tory_id=4100673

	22-06-2005 15:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Colon http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4117590.stm Maybe we can finally deal good blows at this monstrosity after all. Blair is on a good track!

Blair is not to be credited for that : the EU is only applying WTC ruling.

	22-06-2005 17:15									#38
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ag subsidies i heard yesterday these figures:

1 ton sugar from african country costs: 250 euro (around that atleast)

1 ton sugar from the EU being sold all acros the world: 189 euro

and the farmers in the EU get: 680 euros

this is insane and stupid and dumb...

	22-06-2005 17:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Believe it or not as a percentage of GDP Turkey is the world's biggest subsidizer of agriculture. The list is: 1. Turkey 2. Switzerland 3. Japan 4. EU 15 5. Mexico 6. Poland 7. US 8. Canada 9. Australia It stops after #9 so I assume those are the big offenders when it comes to subsidies. http://www.economist.com/agenda/dis...tory_id=4100673

[/quote]

I was a little surprised to see Australia on this list because we don't subsidise our farmers. So I looked up the Economist report.

quote: There is, though, wide variation between OECD members. Producer support is worth less than 5% of farm receipts in New Zealand and Australia, but amounts to roughly 20% throughout North America, 34% in the European Union, and a whopping 60% in Japan. And while the overall value of support has fallen from 2.3% of GDP in 1986-88 to 1.2% now, the reductions have been uneven (see chart above). Canada and Mexico have made deep cuts in their farm supports, for instance, while Turkey has actually increased its supports.

The term here is "producer support". That means things like drought relief and structural adjustment schemes to get inefficient producers off the land are counted.

It would be a lot better if the big subdidisers used the money to help inefficient farmers get out of farming.

The big scandal now is the lion's share of the subsidies now goes to agribusiness companies and "needy" farmers like Prince Charles and the Queen.

In many parts of Europe the small holders who the subsidies were designed to help sold up or retired long ago.

	22-06-2005 17:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Blair is not to be credited for that : the EU is only applying WTC ruling.

Let me praise Blair dammit.

	22-06-2005 18:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Ag subsidies end up in my pocket, because I'm in the industry. It's still wrong.

Sorry, but you misunderstood... I said money spent on raising customer awareness to a new product (effectively creating or expanding the current market) is already going to the industry. The comment about my dad really shouldn't have anything to do with it...

quote: Just fine by me. What exempts them from the necessity of competing? But realize that (1) there are ag niches other than organic farming; and (2) modern farming practices are very effective and efficient. Post World War II, in the US, corn (maize) yields per acre have increased by 800%. In the last 3 years alone, yields per acre have increased by about 25%. I'm not so sure these 3rd world countries would come out better in this competition for most crops.

As said before, we don't need effective and efficient farming so much anymore... when the EU-15 have finished modernizing their agricultural system there will be plenty of food and if we don't think about new markets or reforms NOW we certainly will be having a problem then...

quote: 1. So? Why force people to buy overpriced food just to deny some third-world country the money it needs to raise itself out of third-worldom?

First, I don't have a problem with pricey food.. people are getting too fat anyway
Second, third-world countries could build a market for themselves that I think in the long run is even better for them... resources and especially of those countries are constantly undervalued and will always be... of course we could also pay higher prices, but that would require the world sitting together.. I have no problem with that and it would be better than buying cheap and giving a debt relief every now and then..

quote: 2. So? Why should we subsidize "raising awareness" just so your family can profit from it? Could the answer be as banal as "so my family can profit from it"?

come on....

quote: 3. But our farmers already do produce quality food. Why pay higher prices to achieve the same quality, or, granting your assumptions, to achieve marginal and unnoticable differences in quality?

Actually this is not true. I have a friend who is farmer and has specialized in ecological or biological or whatever you want to call it.. food. The amount of work going into this is quite high and the quality is supposed to be better because the food is more natural.. there are no artificial subsidies used and nature is to take its course. I believe that this kind of food is more healthy for us than those quickly raised, fertilized and protected with lots of chemistry

Of course this is not so easy to change from one day to another because the fields would need to be farmed without artificial fertilizer or chemistry for several years before you could call your products ecologically|biologically farmed.

quote: Could you define what you mean by "biological food"? YOu are apparently misunderstanding the meaning of 'biological' given that you have implied that genetically modified crops aren't "biological food" even though anything genetically modifed would be intrinsically biological.

The term "biological food" is german... I didn't know the english term for it. Colon got it:

quote: Originally posted by Colon I think he means organic food: food that's produced without chemical or GM along the chain.

organic, natural,... well you get the point...

	22-06-2005 18:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That sounds suspiciously like their problem and not mine. My problem is these farmers keep spounging money I'd rather see go to education and health care. I have to sink or swim in my job so why do farmers feel the tax payers owe them a living when the market says we have way to many farmers?

Anyway, you cannot take their subsidies from one day to the other... you will artificially create a crisis that nobody needs. Things are going to need to change, but I am for a goal and an aim instead of some radical, greedy actions that make absolutely no sense.

	22-06-2005 18:44									#43
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To support farmers, buy food from a farmers market- subsidies often are going to corporate farms anyway.

quote: Of course this is not so easy to change from one day to another because the fields would need to be farmed without artificial fertilizer or chemistry for several years before you could call your products ecologically|biologically farmed.

Dunno about EU standards (probably higher), US is 3 years.

	22-06-2005 19:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So why do you lack such sense of outrage when it comes to corporate welfare?

This is corporate welfare. The vast majority of this money goes to agribusiness, not small family farmers.

	22-06-2005 19:27									#45
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In California, you can get a provisional certification after 1 year, then full certification after 3 years. In some cases (depending upon your past credentials) the provisional certification is enough to get you admitted to organic farmer's markets like the one at the SF Ferry Building (the best in the US)

	22-06-2005 19:31									#46
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Pchang clarifies a point I made in, oh, the VERY FIRST reply to this thread, MrFun.

Ethanol, anybody?

	22-06-2005 19:35									#47
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** MrFun gives JohnT a cookie

	22-06-2005 22:16									#48
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DanS, why do you hate America?

	22-06-2005 22:26									#49
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i hope brazil follows through with their threat not to honor intellectual property rights if the US and europe dont slash their agricultural subsidies

note: those stats about most subsidized countries underestimates japan, since not only do farmers get subsidies, they also have tariff barriers against imported stuff.
side note: it seems that turkey is more european then any other EU nation; they subsidize at much greater levels. i think they should be let into the EU.
side side note: in switzerland, they pay farmers to put their cows on the mountain side, so it increases the view, and the esthetic of the area.

	22-06-2005 22:36									#50
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quote: side side note: in switzerland, they pay farmers to put their cows on the mountain side, so it increases the view, and the esthetic of the area.

wtg switzerland

	22-06-2005 22:54									#51
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at Swiss aesthetics. I think mountain sides look better sans cows. They would be much better off paying their farmers to put their pretty daughters on the mountainsides in bikinis.

	22-06-2005 23:00									#52
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And maybe some haystacks

	23-06-2005 00:06									#53
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I'm in favour of the US government subsidizing me. Where do I pick up the check?

	23-06-2005 00:14									#54
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Silver subsidies?

	23-06-2005 00:15									#55
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I think you have to go to Redmond

	23-06-2005 00:17									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Let me praise Blair dammit.

Blair does deserve prais for his insisting that if the EU budget is to be revised then CAP must be part of that revision. Chirac was unhappy about that but Blair was right to do so.

	23-06-2005 00:31									#57
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it seems like the french are the biggest blockers of EU reform. and Shroeder goes along with him. (but ibet if you cut off chirac, shroeder wont be as combative, or uncompromising)

	23-06-2005 00:35									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'm in favour of the US government subsidizing me. Where do I pick up the check?

move here and get to work not growing food

	23-06-2005 01:08									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Anyway, you cannot take their subsidies from one day to the other... you will artificially create a crisis that nobody needs. Things are going to need to change, but I am for a goal and an aim instead of some radical, greedy actions that make absolutely no sense.

Radical greedy action? Are you implying that having farmers actually pay their own way and justify their existance is radical and greedy? EVERYONE ELSE, bar jumbo jet makers & certain automakers, must pay their own way without massive handouts from the tax payers. If anyone here is greedy then it is the fat cat farmer who has a net worth of hundreds of thousands if not millions yet demands people give him money to not farm. Give me money or... I'll actually get off my ass and do some work!

The truth is these subsidies have massively distorted the market realities and have lead to over production of every agricultural good imaginable. Quality is extremely high yet people don't buy enough of this food (even with our society growing fatter by the day) in order to justify these levels of production. If people demand organic food then great; there will be farmers willing to accept the lower farm yields in order to get the higher prices organic foods cost. Either way there is no reason why the government should be paying 300% of market rate for goods that end up being destroyed because there is no demand for them.

Greedy and radical indeed!

	23-06-2005 01:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by pchang This is corporate welfare. The vast majority of this money goes to agribusiness, not small family farmers.

Yeah, that is a well documented fact. ADM and Con-Agra along with their EU and Japanese equivalants suck up most of the subsidies while the over production still lowers prices and forces small inefficent producers out of business. The end result is massive corporate owned farms get huge cash handouts and the family farmer still go out of business.

If we could at least cut the corporate farms off and only give subsidies to family farms then that would be a huge improvement but family farms don't pay politicians off like massive multinational corporations do so that's not likely to change. The subsidies harm consumers, they harm tax payers, and they are killing the worlds nonsubsidized farmers. We need fair trade where tax payer money stops being flushed down the toilet and where price controls & protectionism aren't used to jack up prices. The hundreds of billions of Euros/Dollars which are wasted on farm subsidies can instead be used for economically useful activities like education or infastruction. Study after study have shown that every dollar we eliminate in subsidies and redirect else were develops $2 of economic activity. We come out ahead as a group even if greedy farm corporations are forced to compete.