02-07-2005 14:26									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo He's a brutal ****. Not because of what he may or may not have done wrt to the Embassy. That's practically irrelevent.

no doubt. its a shame our leaders dont make a fuss about all the brutal **** they've supported in the past and continue to now when it suits them isn't it?

We could live in a really good world no? oh well - we do put them in power i suppose

	02-07-2005 15:17									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle How so? A brutal kidnapper, one who invaded a U.S. embassy and kidnapped U.S. citizens might have just been made the leader of one of the largest arab nations on Earth.

So when did the Indo-European Iranians (whose name derives from their word for Aryan) become Semitic Arabs ?


Well, all Muslims look the same in the dark, I suppose.

Another Arab:

	02-07-2005 15:49									#63
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molly:I am not sure of the nationality, but generally speaking, many people have been assimilated into "arabism". Some of them white, and other black. Persia is lucky to have escaped this fait, but it's still dominated by a religion that is predominantly an arab one ( although not this particular branch).

	02-07-2005 16:11									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Az molly:I am not sure of the nationality, but generally speaking, many people have been assimilated into "arabism". Some of them white, and other black. Persia is lucky to have escaped this fait, but it's still dominated by a religion that is predominantly an arab one ( although not this particular branch).

I don't think it's quite that simple- Islam as a religion may have originated in Arabia, but does anyone seriously think of Christianity as being an Asiatic 'Semitic' religion ?

Since the days of the Abbasids, Islam has been increasingly dominated (culturally and in terms of population at least) by non-Arab peoples- Iranians, Turks, Berbers, Egyptians, black Africans from North West Africa to East Africa, Uzbeks, Mongols, Chinese, et cetera.

Ask one of our Iranian posters in Civ 4, mkhosravi, how Iranians feel about being described as Arabs....


The most populous 'Muslim' countries are now Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangla Desh and Nigeria- and culturally they certainly aren't Arab.

quote: Go further east. The incredible story is Iran, a theocratic and despotic Muslim country. At its peak, its TFR was seven children per woman. At a recent U.N. conference, an Iranian demographer delivered a paper that calculated the current TFR at 2.06 and falling. Like Iran, the most populous Muslim countries are not Arab. Nearly all--including Turkey, Bangladesh and Indonesia--have also seen major declines in fertility. Only Pakistan remains high.

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/demography.shtml

Too often I've seen Arab used as short hand for Muslim, or Muslim for Arab- which would be news to such luminaries of the Arab world as George Habash (al Hakim) and Suha Arafat or such luminaries of the Islamic world as Mohammad Ali Jinnah and the Ayatollah Khomeini.

	02-07-2005 17:53									#65
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As another aside, and as a supplement to Molly's post, the Arabs are also some of the most intolerant Muslim's around. Their paticular flavor of Suni teachings routinely marginalizes or even brand as heretics the Sufi's. Then we can go to ultra-Suni Arabs, better known as the Wahabi's. They are truly frightening.

There are Suni's in Iraq who claim that Suni's naturally should be in power over Shia's, they gave some history but I was very tired. Molly can probably figure it out, it went back to the caliphates I believe. Unfortunately Iran's Shia are now giving the Wahabi's a run for the titile of most intolerant branch of Islam, given their treatment of certain minorities like the B'Hai (if memory serves me properly, they engaged in a nice short extermination campaign against them, but I have gotten very little sleep since I've started back to work and my sleep cycle is truly whacked right now.)

	02-07-2005 18:33									#66
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Now the Austrians say that the Iran president elect is a suspect to a 1989 triple murder there.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...eu/austria_iran

	02-07-2005 20:24									#67
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Actually, if anything the Shiites are the less naturally tolerant of the two groups.

While the Sunnis have the Wahabbis- they have a generally more egalitarian system of 'electing' imams.

Shiites generally believe that imams have special knowledge granted to them through Allah. (shades of Gnosticism here, perhaps?) In the early days they had 12 Imams who were successors to the Caliph 'Ali. These Imams who appointed their successors before they died... However, this practice died out when the last one apparently did not foresee his own death and appoint a successor. It is believed that his successor went into occultation(?) and will return at the end of times.

In a sense, the Sunnis are more democratic by nature than the Shiites.

They always make me think of the Sunni as the Protestants of Islam and the Shiite as the Catholics- with a highly defined hierarchy.

...Just the facts... no judgements there.

	02-07-2005 22:50									#68
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But both groups enjoy trashing the Sufi's, and engage in periodic heretic hunting. Which, since this is current Islam means the death penalty.

	02-07-2005 23:19									#69
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No story here. "Doubles" can be found anywhere.

Fifteen years ago I met a guy who looked just like my younger brother. Several years later I was back in town and I saw the same guy in a Wal-Mart parking lot.

The incidence of this is rather high. There are only about ten million combinations of the primary genetic markers for skin and structural appearance. A white male in the US should have up to half a dozen look-alikes, with one or two falling within a similar age bracket.

A larger number of people will have look-alike faces but significantly different height and body build. For certain narrow phenotypes (e.g., red haired people of Irish ancestry, or blacks of specific West African tribal ancestry) the incidence can be much higher than their mixed ancestry counterparts.

Finding a look-alike among 60 million Persians should be somewhat easier than finding a look-alike in a more cosmopolitan population. There are probably a dozen or more men who could pass for Amadinejad's twin.

	02-07-2005 23:25									#70
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quote: I don't think it's quite that simple- Islam as a religion may have originated in Arabia, but does anyone seriously think of Christianity as being an Asiatic 'Semitic' religion ?

No, but the seats of power of the christian religion are gone from the middle east. Thus Christianity is a european religion with it's sources in near east, much like Buddhism isn't really an indian religion anymore - since the buddhist population of the subcontinent is negligible.

quote: Since the days of the Abbasids, Islam has been increasingly dominated (culturally and in terms of population at least) by non-Arab peoples- Iranians, Turks, Berbers, Egyptians, black Africans from North West Africa to East Africa, Uzbeks, Mongols, Chinese, et cetera.

While in terms in populations you're most certainly correct, you're not correct in terms of influence on religion. Of course, as any global religion, there are many separatist movements - but historically, Islam was made by arabs, or people who assimilated into 'arabity' - ask an egyptian if he's an arab or not. Same goes to most of the northen african coast, and the fertile crescent.



Since the days of the Abbasids, Islam has been increasingly dominated (culturally and in terms of population at least) by non-Arab peoples- Iranians, Turks, Berbers, Egyptians, black Africans from North West Africa to East Africa, Uzbeks, Mongols, Chinese, et cetera.

Ask one of our Iranian posters in Civ 4, mkhosravi, how Iranians feel about being described as Arabs....


The most populous 'Muslim' countries are now Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangla Desh and Nigeria- and culturally they certainly aren't Arab.[/q]

	03-07-2005 00:06									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Finding a look-alike among 60 million Persians should be somewhat easier than finding a look-alike in a more cosmopolitan population. There are probably a dozen or more men who could pass for Amadinejad's twin.

The guy is acknowleged to have been leader in the same group of student activists who took the embassy, it narrows the group to a few hundred, but it still looks more like a look alike case. The Austria case against him for the 1989 murder of the three Kurd exiles looks more significant, however.

	04-07-2005 15:38									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Az [q] While in terms in populations you're most certainly correct, you're not correct in terms of influence on religion. Of course, as any global religion, there are many separatist movements - but historically, Islam was made by arabs, or people who assimilated into 'arabity' - ask an egyptian if he's an arab or not. Same goes to most of the northen african coast, and the fertile crescent.

I'm going to have to disagree somewhat. That Mecca and Medina and Jerusalem are situated in the Middle East and are Islam's three holiest sites is undeniable; however, Najaf, Kerbala, Mash'had, Qom and Mazar i Sharif are sites important to Shi'a Muslims, and Mash'had Qom and Mazar i Sharif are not in Arab or Arab dominated countries.

Islam lost its distinct Arab flavour quite early on- probably because it conquered the Sassanid Empire so quickly. By doing so the relatively unsophisticated Arabs from the oases trading cities in some of the modern day Gulf States encountered an ancient cultured civilization with a highly organized state church, clergy and flourishing literature with trading networks stetching from India and China to Rome.

The kharijites (often thought of as the first Muslim sect) appeared early on and attracted non-Arab converts to Islam who were disgruntled with the privileged Arab position in the new religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites

The revolt of the Zanj, Turkish and Central Asian opposition to Arab dominated Sunni states all show the power of non-Arab Islamic peoples.

Also the primary cultural influences of the Abbasid Empire were not Arab, but Hellenistic and Iranian.

Ibn Battuta visiting northern India (in the 1330s) had this to say about the variety of Islam he found there:

"Along its four sides there are forty pavilions, and round about it live the musicians. Their place is called Tarababad (city of music) and they have there a most extensive bazaar, a cathedral mosque, and many other mosques beside. I was told that the singing-girls there, of whom there are a great many, take part in a body in the tarawih prayers in these mosques during the month of Ramadan, and the imams lead them in these prayers. The male musicians do the same. I myself saw the male musicians on the occasion of the wedding of the amir Sayf al Din Ghada, son of Muhanna (a Syrian nobleman) when each one of them had a prayer mat under his knees and on hearing the call to prayer, rose, made his ablutions, and performed the prayer."

He makes similar observations about the variety of Islam he found closer to his home, when he visited the Malian territory and found semi-naked Muslim women.

Indeed, by 1300, very distinctive forms of Islam were apparent, from West Africa to Central Asia and Canton, north India to East Africa.

	04-07-2005 16:10									#73
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All of what you're saying is correct, but it falls squarely into the separatist sub-denominations that I've alluded to in my short post. It's more of a huge exception that proves the rule - The mere fact that you mention 'revealed' women in Mali as a counterpoint, just reveals that in 'vanilla' Islam, the woman remains in the shape and form of the women in pre-Islamic helenist-non-influenced arab society, which can be traced back to deeper Arabia, and the heart of the creation of Islam.

It's a kin to claiming that Christianity isn't at it's very heart a european religion. The fact that denominations of Christianity vary so strongly doesn't change that fact. ( although it's possible that the last 100 years, and the emergence of atheism as a dominant force in europe can change this, for good )

	04-07-2005 16:21									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Az All of what you're saying is correct, but it falls squarely into the separatist sub-denominations that I've alluded to in my short post. It's more of a huge exception that proves the rule - The mere fact that you mention 'revealed' women in Mali as a counterpoint, just reveals that in 'vanilla' Islam, the woman remains in the shape and form of the women in pre-Islamic helenist-non-influenced arab society, which can be traced back to deeper Arabia, and the heart of the creation of Islam.

But veiled women were not exclusive to Islam or Arab culture- Roman women and Byzantine women and some Iranian women went veiled, before Islam appeared.

It's self-evidently true that Islam has adopted the characteristics of countries that have adopted it as the major religion- even the burqa in Afghanistan, mistakenly thought of as being 'traditionally' Islamic, is nothing of the sort- and not all Muslim Afghan women even under the Taleban wore the burqa.

Veiled, semi-veiled, unveiled, sari wearing, chador wearing, employed, in strict purdah, authors, scientists, illiterates- there's as many varieties of rules for women in Islamic countries as there are Heinz soup flavours.

The Taleban could confine women to the home allegedly in a back to basics approach to Islam- odd, given that a wife of Muhammad was a business woman and he was her employee. If the distinctively Arab approach to Islam was the cultural flavour of Islam in non-Arab countries, we'd expect to see more countries such as Libya with its forces of warrior women like Muhammad's early supporter Nasibah bint Ka'b al-Maziniyyah rather than the Arab Kuwaiti and Saudi approach to women's positions- prone and mute.

	04-07-2005 16:37									#75
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We're mixing two somewhat separate discussions - The influence of arab culture on Islam, and the treatment of women under Islam. Also, I think that you've misunderstood my original claim.

I've never claimed that all muslims or even most of them, are arabs, or are followers of arab culture. I've said that many people who were not arabs originally, became arabs, as a consequence of the muslim explosion.

With regards to your references to early Islam as the true Islam, IMHO it's patently false to establish the 'true' meaning of the religion simply by the teachings of alternatively by following the example of the characters of their founding mythical figures. For all purposes, Muhammad could've married Adrea Dworkin, but it wouldn't change the meaning of the religion as a social phenomenon and driving force.

	04-07-2005 17:02									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Az I've never claimed that all muslims or even most of them, are arabs, or are followers of arab culture. I've said that many people who were not arabs originally, became arabs, as a consequence of the muslim explosion.

I don't really see how they did though- unless you mean something like the offspring of Arab masters and non-Arab slave women, because Islam held that a man could not 'own' his own children.

If you mean identified with Arab culture or Arabs then that would be true only up to a point (as the Qu'ran was in Arabic and so the universal religion remained as a transmitter of some Arabic ideals at a certain point in time) but Iran was never 'Arabized' nor even were the Berbers- many of whom today still do not speak or read or write in Arabic and yet are Muslims.

	04-07-2005 17:13									#77
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I wasn't talking about Iran. I was talking people in the middle east in General. let us establish first that the vast majority of people in: Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq ( somewhat less vast ), Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco ( again, somewhat less vast) consider themselves arabs.

Let us also establish that their genetical heritage doesn't really come mostly from the Arabian peninsula.

There are black arabs in Sudan, and there are pale arabs, well, in a lot of places.

How did this happen? How do descendants of thousands of tribes noone remembers now call themselves by the names of their ancestors' conquerors? It's the way of the world.

	04-07-2005 17:38									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Az How did this happen? How do descendants of thousands of tribes noone remembers now call themselves by the names of their ancestors' conquerors? It's the way of the world.

Well even ethnic Chinese in Singapore speak better accented English than some Britons, and have English names too. Same goes for First Nation artists such as Bill Reid in Canada, or Koori statesman such as David Unaipon in Australia.

Having names derived from Arabic sources doesn't make you an Arab- as having names from ancient Iranian sources doesn't make Pakistanis, Indians, Uzbeks or Afghans Iranian.

Firdaus and Pervez as names are found all over the Near East and Central Asia, for instance. One of my earliest sets of neighbours I remember from growing up were ethnic Kashmiri refugees from Tanzania- the sons and daughters spoke English, Swahili and Farsi and Arabic, had a mixture of Iranian and Arabic names, had never been to Iran, India, Pakistan or the Middle East and were British citizens.

Oh and:

quote: the vast majority of people in: Egypt consider themselves arabs.

quote: Cairo Press Review

" President Mubarak inaugurates Armed Forces' International Medical Centre
*Centre offers high level services to Egyptians, Arabs, foreigners"

http://www.sis.gov.eg/pressrev/html/pv051024.htm




Given that the 'Arab World' supposedly encompasses everything from Kuwait to Mauretania to black Africans in southern Sudan, it's taking propaganda a bit at face value to assume that simply because they have Arab names they are somehow 'Arab' in outlook or culture.


Even that old villain the Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al Husseini could have passed for Caucasian- as could many of Morocco's inhabitants. It's not uncommon even now to see blue eyed blond haired children in Morocco's souks and medinahs- all with good 'Arab' names, of course.

	04-07-2005 21:28									#79
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The greatest intellectual achievements of the Moslem world have traditionally originated in the Arab world. For example, Naguib Mahfouz, an egyptian, won the nobel prize for literature- and the premeir islamic university is at Al-Azhar in Cairo. Students from all over come there to be educated. Qom is a much more regional thing- and its for many less moslems. Only for shiites...

Then of course, the founder of the Moslem brotherhood was an arab- the first allegedly islamist political organization. (and no, I'm not forgeting the first political party based around islamist ideology- "jamat-i-islami" in pakistan- but this is the first islamist org.)

Then there's Said Zaghlul, the egyptian nationalist with his Wafd party.

And honestly- Egyptians are genetically arabs. Some may claim a longer-history relationship to the Old Kingdom, but they were part of the Arab League, and attempted to found an arab union with their 'genetic brothers in Syria' and frankly ARE arabs.

--
and all moslems look to the arab world for 'pure islam.' Indeed, how can they not when they must visit mecca once in their lifetimes.

Arabs commonly insult the Indonesian moslems for following an unorthodox form that is syncretic with paganistic rituals.

Also, the majority of moslems are Sunni. The only shiite nations are as follows:

Iran, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan (or one of hte other -stans), Iraq (nowadays), Syria (if you count the Alawites as shittes)

All other moslems are mostly Sunni.
-
As a list of arab states-
pretty much all the maghreb... then most of hte middle east; excepting Turkey.
Not Iran, Pakistan or anything to the east of them.

Yes, the non-arab moslems may outnumber the arabs, but they look to the middle east for guidance and the middle east is their origin.

And honestly- you give the BERBERS as example of non-assimilation... by g-d. there are hardly any berbers around. They only survived by hiding in the mountains for hundreds of years. They are not a factor in any argument that states that arabs aren't dominant.

A final point is this- all moslems must learn arabic to read the quran. to have it translated is to lose its value. If that wouldn't prove that arabs are the center of islam- I don't know what is.

They hold the basic tools to interpretation of scripture- when was the last time you heard a moslem stating that he gets his theology from an Indonesian, a malaysian, a pakistani (from the 'land of the pure' no less), an indian, etc.?

	05-07-2005 17:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud The greatest intellectual achievements of the Moslem world have traditionally originated in the Arab world.

Except those that didn't- like Muslim Iranian mathematics, astronomy and medicine, Muslim Turkish architecture and illuminated manuscripts, Muslim Moghul architecture and illuminated manuscripts and and metalworking and astronomy, the Muslim Iranian Firdaussi's 'Shahnama' in Middle Farsi, the poetry of Turco-Iranian Jalal al Din Rumi, the poetry of Omar Khayyam, the observatory of Ulugh Begh et cetera, et cetera.


As for Egyptians being 'genetically' Arabs, that's as bizarre and meaningless as saying Hassan II of Morocco was 'genetically' Arab. Yes he had Arab ancestry, but he also had Berber ancestry and a black African grandmother.

One look at Anwar Sadat's physiognomy would convince any doubter that he was considerably less 'Arab' than any member of the house of Saud.


The Egyptian language isn't related to Arabic, it's related to Berber- and as for there being hardly any Berbers around- when were you last in Morocco ?

The notion that all Muslims look to the Arab world for 'pure Islam' is equally odd, given that you haven't supplied a definition of what pure Islam is, and just seem to ignore centuries of non-Arab Islamic states doing their own thing without checking in with nominal Arab quality controllers.

Can't say as I recall the Ottomans, Timurids, Moghuls or Safavids asking for an Arab stamp of authenticity for their brand of Islam.

	05-07-2005 18:24									#81
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I tried to post the following yesterday a dosen times and I've failed. Trying again.

[quote]
Having names derived from Arabic sources doesn't make you an Arab- as having names from ancient Iranian sources doesn't make Pakistanis, Indians, Uzbeks or Afghans Iranian.

Firdaus and Pervez as names are found all over the Near East and Central Asia, for instance. One of my earliest sets of neighbours I remember from growing up were ethnic Kashmiri refugees from Tanzania- the sons and daughters spoke English, Swahili and Farsi and Arabic, had a mixture of Iranian and Arabic names, had never been to Iran, India, Pakistan or the Middle East and were British citizens.
[/q]
A case of immigrants and shifting identities. This is not the case of most populations in the world, after all.

quote: Even that old villain the Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al Husseini could have passed for Caucasian- as could many of Morocco's inhabitants. It's not uncommon even now to see blue eyed blond haired children in Morocco's souks and medinahs- all with good 'Arab' names, of course.

Making my point for me there, mate. . The fact that they look like aryan posterboys don't mean that they're not arab. I wonder if the Mufti considered himself, or was considered an arab by others ( The answer is 'yes, duh').

But caucasian isn't the proper word - It's not much of a surprise that the people of coastal northen africa, and of the middle east look caucasian - after all, they ARE caucasian. 'European' is more suitable, I guess.

quote: Well even ethnic Chinese in Singapore speak better accented English than some Britons, and have English names too. Same goes for First Nation artists such as Bill Reid in Canada, or Koori statesman such as David Unaipon in Australia.

Again, this isn't about what you speak, or about your name. It's more about what you consider yourself, and how are you considered by others.

	05-07-2005 18:35									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Az Making my point for me there, mate. . The fact that they look like aryan posterboys don't mean that they're not arab. I wonder if the Mufti considered himself, or was considered an arab by others ( The answer is 'yes, duh').

In which case the definition of Arab becomes so loose and vague as to be meaningless. Is it someone who speaks Arabic ?

Someone who is born to at least one parent of 'Arab' descent ? Someone adopted by Arabs ? Someone born in an 'Arab' country ?

Given the comings and goings of invaders, slaves, children born to slaves and their owners, mass migrations all over North Africa and the Middle East and the Near East good luck finding anyone who is 'pure' anything.

I'd say if anything identifying as Arab these days is much more about a geopolitical stance than anything genetic or ethnic. There are several internet forums where there are very heated debates between Arabs and Egyptians about who or what is an Arab- with many Egyptians vociferously denying they're Arabs.

If some poor benighted poverty stricken dust bowl in North Africa wants to say it's Arab when its inhabitants are mostly Nilo-Saharan, Berbers, or Touareg- let it. It's all about the petro dollars at heart.

	05-07-2005 18:46									#83
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quote: And honestly- Egyptians are genetically arabs. Some may claim a longer-history relationship to the Old Kingdom, but they were part of the Arab League, and attempted to found an arab union with their 'genetic brothers in Syria' and frankly ARE arabs.

It's a mistake to conflate language (and by proxy, nationality) with race. If that were so, Swedes would be genetically closer to Gujaratis than Finns, and Catalans would be genetically closer to Persians than Basques.

quote: A final point is this- all moslems must learn arabic to read the quran. to have it translated is to lose its value.

No one believes that outside of fundies (and perhaps some Arab nationalists)...

	05-07-2005 19:04									#84
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quote: .... In which case the definition of Arab becomes so loose and vague as to be meaningless. Is it someone who speaks Arabic ? Someone who is born to at least one parent of 'Arab' descent ? Someone adopted by Arabs ? Someone born in an 'Arab' country ? .......

As I've said, trying to define a nationality is meaningless:

It's about how you percieve yourself, and how others percieve you. Trying to define it in logical terms is flawed, since it's based not on definitions, but on emotions. How would one define one's adopted family for example?

	05-07-2005 19:08									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Az As I've said, trying to define a nationality is meaningless:

I wish you'd said it a lot earlier before we both started to define it.....


It's funny but I was just reminded of an illustration of a scroll of the Book of Esther dating from 1700, produced in or around the area of modern day Lebanon.

It's decorated all over with Chinese miniatures.

	05-07-2005 19:13									#86
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quote: I wish you'd said it a lot earlier before we both started to define it.....

Now now, I never tried to define nationality. My claim is that most people in the Middle east (bar the Persians, the kurds, and other smaller peoples, like Israelis ) consider themselves arab. 'tis a fact. I never claimed them to make any sense.

In fact, I feel very close to the position of the Canaanite movement ( if you are familiar with them), and in fact I feel that our society has a certain obligation to push the middle east into a direction some of the canaanites have envisioned.

	05-07-2005 19:29									#87
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btw... time for a new signature.

	05-07-2005 20:04									#88
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yup, just look at what was done to the Iriquois confederacy by other revolutionaries, or to those Colonists who remained loyal to the crown. Yes, stuff happens in revolutions.

The American revolution was a virtual civil war - with atrocities both ways. And many (most?) of the notable founding fathers called for restraint. The question here is not that Iranian revolutionaries killed or exiled supporters of the Shah - yes, that kind of sh*t happens in revolutions - its that A. They crushed fellow revolutionaries, who werent as extreme - we're talking more Robespierre, or Lenin, not Madison. and B. The guy who is NOW becoming president is one of the chief security security thugs. Like Dzerzhinski (sp?) becoming head of the USSR.

	05-07-2005 20:07									#89
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The American revolution was a virtual civil war - with atrocities both ways. And many (most?) of the notable founding fathers called for restraint. The question here is not that Iranian revolutionaries killed or exiled supporters of the Shah - yes, that kind of sh*t happens in revolutions - its that A. They crushed fellow revolutionaries, who werent as extreme - we're talking more Robespierre, or Lenin, not Madison. and B. The guy who is NOW becoming president is one of the chief security security thugs. Like Dzerzhinski (sp?) becoming head of the USSR.

Or maybe its like some of the lesser known heads of internal security taking over, like, say, the guy after Beria?

But please, do state the worst possible case out of thin air. Cause I guess your optimism only applies to those people with world views you accept. Everyone esle must be definition be TEH EVIL.

	05-07-2005 20:11									#90
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Originally posted by GePap

quote: Or maybe its like some of the lesser known heads of internal security taking over, like, say, the guy after Beria?

Malenkov? he was a security guy? Youre suggesting we should trust the new Prez of Iran as much as we trusted Malenkov? Or that he will fall as quickly?

quote: But please, do state the worst possible case out of thin air. Cause I guess your optimism only applies to those people with world views you accept. Everyone esle must be definition be TEH EVIL.

Of couse I said no such thing. I merely stated some facts. If you have basis for optimism in this case Id like to hear it. Actually I AM optimistic. As I said earlier, i think on the other thread, i think this adds clarity to the situation.