03-07-2005 22:55									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai How is that possible? I mean, those are well known people in Muslim and Arab history! You should reread your history book ASAP Markos.

history books at greek schools are western-oriented, we barely did any muslim/arab history...

	03-07-2005 23:00									#62
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quote: Why would Greek rulers so sure of their Hellenic identity strive so hard to prove their descent from Greeks, and invite Aristotle and Euripides to live and teach in their country ?

Philippos was a king of a Greek State that wanted the best Greek tutors for his son. What's wrong with that?

seems like you only want to see things that you want to see and miss the obvious....

	03-07-2005 23:03									#63
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quote: After Alexander they shared a common culture. There was no Greek empire without Alexander.

greeks were divided in city-states (some times opposing on another) but their culture (language, customs, religion) were the same....

200 years before Alexander, another Macedon king, Alexander I (Alexander was Alexander III) participated in the greek-only Olympic games. how would that be possible for a barbarian?

	04-07-2005 01:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatiscott Alexander was "great" in no way except miltarily.

That's a really big "except".

	04-07-2005 01:40									#65
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It's a worthy one, though. Some of the greatest leaders of nations have had nothing to do with conquest. Some of the greatest leaders' greatest accomplishments were in the arena of administration, consolidation, cultural growth, etc. I don't know to what extent it was intended by Alexander, but he did bring about a flowering of Hellenic culture across the Near East. There were Greco-Buddhists in Afghanistan in from the 4th century BC until the 5th century AD because of him, like the ones who constructed the statues at Bamiyan that the Taliban destroyed in 2001.

	04-07-2005 01:54									#66
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quote: It's a worthy one, though. Some of the greatest leaders of nations have had nothing to do with conquest.

Doesn't mean that leaders which are great only militarily shouldn't be considered great...

	04-07-2005 07:29									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: After Alexander they shared a common culture. There was no Greek empire without Alexander. greeks were divided in city-states (some times opposing on another) but their culture (language, customs, religion) were the same.... 200 years before Alexander, another Macedon king, Alexander I (Alexander was Alexander III) participated in the greek-only Olympic games. how would that be possible for a barbarian?

Greeks from colonies in the Crimea and the (now French) Riviera also participated in the Olympic games and were considered barbarians by the city Greeks.

But you are right, the distinctions between the different branches were insignificant before Alexanders time. The Persian invasion ended most of it, they had to stick together or perish alone.

What I meant about common culture is looking to a common root in Alexander's achievements, whereas before they were much more competitive and jealous.

	04-07-2005 14:20									#68
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Along a similar vain, almost every single US state is named after a native indian tribe.

Ah, yes, the Indian states of Virginia, Louisiana, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Maryland and Pennsylvania.

Named after the famous Native Americans Elizabeth Tudor, Louis XIV, William Penn, Queen Henrietta Maria Stuart, King Charles II, and King George II.

	04-07-2005 14:32									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatiscott Alexander was "great" in no way except miltarily. Pericles, by all means, is a much better representative of a "great" greek leader. (in case you don't know, pericles more or less invented western culture)

Oh, really ?

News to all those Celts and Etruscans, and of course those Semitic people who gave us the Latin alphabet.

Alexander created an oikoumene in which the knowledge and goods and art of the East (especially India and Iran) were spread throughout the Middle East, to Egypt and Greece- and vice versa.

	04-07-2005 14:48									#70
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quote: oikoumene

you do know that that's a greek word, dont you?

	04-07-2005 14:54									#71
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Ah, yes, the Indian states of Virginia, Louisiana, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Maryland and Pennsylvania.

Mississipi, Missouri, Arkansas, North Dakota, South Dakota, Hawaii, Illinois, etc

	04-07-2005 15:09									#72
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quote: Originally posted by lajzar Mississipi, Missouri, Arkansas, North Dakota, South Dakota, Hawaii, Illinois, etc

I'm sure the Polynesians of Hawaii will be greatly surprised to find out they have turned American Indian.

New Mexico, New Jersey, Maine, New York, Rhode Island, Florida, New Hampshire, Washington, Colorado, California, Delaware, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, West Virginia.....

Damn, almost forgot Vermont.

I make that 25 states (with the others I've already mentioned) not named after American Indian words or tribes.

So of 50 American states, just half are named after or for American Indians or American Indian words.

As opposed to :

quote: Along a similar vain, almost every single US state is named after a native indian tribe.

	04-07-2005 15:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: oikoumene you do know that that's a greek word, dont you?

There was I thinking it was Macedonian.

	04-07-2005 15:39									#74
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I've had it!!! I play Civ to escape the endless Balkanizing of "oouh, but Alexandar was in facto Bulgarian, just look at his nose" and "Mother Teresa was a western Romanian, but with a Hungarian twist" and now, et you, Brutuses? ENOUGH ALREADY, you're ruining the game for me!!! (I know yeall just trying to get Markos angry (not that it's much of a feat), but have meeercie).
plus, how dibionic (my word) is it to fight over the tribal ownership of a dude who organized the "famous "marriage of East and West" meant to symbolize the new racial unity he was hoping to create" (quote just googled out from some history site). but heck, that's why he was the Great, and we're all just ******

	04-07-2005 15:41									#75
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WTF, I didn't write ****** i wrote: ******

	04-07-2005 15:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom There was I thinking it was Macedonian.

it's the same

	04-07-2005 15:57									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Cvetin I know yeall just trying to get Markos angry (not that it's much of a feat)

these guys will have to try really hard to get me angry

	04-07-2005 16:36									#78
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on a brighter note, Markos, how're the prices down there this summer? had plans to go to hanioti or pefkohori with Mrs. Cvetin, but i keep hearing opposing stories, some say that your prices this year are unheard of, but other say that halkidiki hotels are empty and that you can get a room basicly for free. what's the truth?

	04-07-2005 16:42									#79
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG it's the same

You can get past this with therapy you know....


Your earlier point:

quote: 200 years before Alexander, another Macedon king, Alexander I (Alexander was Alexander III) participated in the greek-only Olympic games. how would that be possible for a barbarian?

Is answered in part by:

" Although Macedon was considered a semi-barbaric state by some Greeks (especially those whose colonies near Macedonia were threatened by Macedonian expansion) Alexander I claimed descent from Argosian Greeks and Hercules."

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=U&st...-macedon&e=9888

Notice: claimed descent .

And:

quote: Unlike the Modern Olympic Games, only men who spoke Greek were allowed to participate in the Ancient Games. They were to some extent "international", though, in the sense that they included athletes from the various Greek city-states. Additionally, participants eventually came from Greek colonies as well, extending the range of the games to far shores of the Mediteranean and of the Black Sea.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/en...ympic_Games.htm

Notice: spoke Greek . Why even Egyptians and Iranians and Phoenicians could speak Greek.

Barbar humbug.

	04-07-2005 16:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Cvetin on a brighter note, Markos, how're the prices down there this summer? had plans to go to hanioti or pefkohori with Mrs. Cvetin, but i keep hearing opposing stories, some say that your prices this year are unheard of, but other say that halkidiki hotels are empty and that you can get a room basicly for free. what's the truth?

i think things are better than other years. check this out

http://www.gnto.gr/hotelsearch.php?langID=2

http://www.gnto.gr/hotelresults.php...ize=10&langID=2

	04-07-2005 17:05									#81
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom " Although Macedon was considered a semi-barbaric state by some Greeks (especially those whose colonies near Macedonia were threatened by Macedonian expansion) Alexander I claimed descent from Argosian Greeks and Hercules." http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=U&st...-macedon&e=9888 Notice: claimed descent .

yes, the mythical first King of the Macedons was Hercules. do you think there was anyway to prove such a descent, so that Alexander I did not have to "claim" anything?

Beyond that, as implied by the text you quoted, calling a greek "barbarian" back then was a way to gain solidarity from other greek states in order to save your skin

quote: Notice: spoke Greek . Why even Egyptians and Iranians and Phoenicians could speak Greek.

i dont think they were having language exams

from the first link you gave

quote: permitted to participate in the Olympic Games, an honor reserved only for Greeks.

not "greek-speaking"....

	04-07-2005 17:18									#82
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evharisto Mark (hey, I'm actually Greek speaking!!! too bad I can't run, throw discus or wrestle :-)

	04-07-2005 18:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG from the first link you gave quote: permitted to participate in the Olympic Games, an honor reserved only for Greeks. not "greek-speaking"....

Well given that the pompous Greek speakers thought of people who couldn't speak Greek as being non-Greek barbarians because of the noise their non-Greek language supposedly made to the ears of Greek speakers bar bar it's a redundant point.

I mean, I'm happy to admit that the Greeks made great strides in theoretical science and applied science (especially when they made contact with the advanced mathematics and astronomy of Egypt, the Achaemenid Empire and India) but I'm fairly confident neither Archimedes nor Heron of Alexandria had access to blood screening technology, genetic fingerprinting, retina scanning or stringent passport control.

Ergo- your Hellenitude was dependent on you dressing like a Greek, speaking like a Greek and acting like a Greek- even if you had a Lydian, Thracian or Cimmerian origin.

After all, how exactly were they going to tell how 'Greek' someone's ethnic origins or ancestry was, if they came from Magna Graecia, Cyprus, Hyrcania, Olbia or Massilia ?

	04-07-2005 19:27									#84
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an "non-greek" alexander i coin...


http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvi...ucID=99&Lot=134

	04-07-2005 19:36									#85
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...and all this in the Saladin bad idea thread...

	04-07-2005 19:39									#86
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Yeah, I mean here's a really 'Greek' Parthian coin.


Boy those Iranians sure were Greek, weren't they ?

http://dougsmith.ancients.info/parthar.html


The currency in early twentieth century Oman was Maria Theresa dollars, specially struck in Austria.

There's no record of the Omanis ever being ruled by Austria, the Austro-hungarian Empire, or of being European, let alone Austrian.

http://www.newsbriefsoman.info/feat...resa_thaler.htm


I smell desperation, MarkG.

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	04-07-2005 19:49									#87
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More Greek coinage for non-Greeks.

http://dougsmith.ancients.info/feac58bak.html

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	04-07-2005 20:24									#88
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i dont understand

of the two coins you posted, the parthian coin doesnt have any greek on it and the indian coin shows the greek post-alexander influence of the area

	04-07-2005 22:03									#89
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i'm sorry mark, i'm going to have to give you a weeks vacation for straying off topic. We are going to need you to go ahead and start a new thread in the OT if you would like to continue this discussion

	04-07-2005 23:09									#90
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Mod-bashing seems to be in lately? Is summer that hot nowadays?