07-07-2005 00:08									#61
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Ok, I partially cede the point. Its a bit more muddled than my point said.

I did mean more conservative than simply Republican, and I realize the big realignment that happened in the last 50 years (because of civil rights mind you). I wouldn't really consider Ike to be a bulwark of conservatism. So you'd have to show a few more genuine conservatives (regardless of party) who were staunch defenders of civil rights.

And as I'm sure you'd guess, I don't say this with any animosity toward Republicans or even conservatives. I can see many arguments for youth rights (or any other civil rights movement) from a conservative perspective, and I simply lament the fact that more don't jump on board.

Not to say we don't, NYRA is actually full of Republicans. And there are plenty of very strong pro-Bush folks on the forums (and many anti-Bush folks as well of course). But Wiglaf just pissed me off and I uncharacteristically took a shot at him. He is just so obnoxious, I lost my cool.

	07-07-2005 00:38									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Cause most Southeners still voted Democrat? Again, state the obvious.

Well, that's the crux of the matter. The Southern Democrats were the problem. They were completely uncooperative with progressive leaders like Johnson, but they were Democrats nonetheless.

The Republicans were never an impediment to Black Civil Rights in any way. In most cases, their votes were even required to push Civil Rights Legislation through. And they always delivered.

Ozzy, I think the point you were trying to make is that Social Conservatives are always on the wrong side of any Civil Rights Movement. Not Republicans, nor Conservatives in general. I think that's true by definition, though, because Social Conservatives, by definition, oppose any new social movement.

	07-07-2005 00:44									#63
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Oh, and if you don't think Ike is a conservative, that's your prerogative, but IMHO, he's an example, perhaps the example all conservative leaders should follow.

	10-07-2005 03:11									#64
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My review on the movie:

Great acting, cinematography, etc.
UTTERLY SHITTY writing.


Some more points:
He should've made a trilogy out of it.
He should've ditched the "the died from bacteria" idea.

	10-07-2005 06:27									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Az Some more points: He should've made a trilogy out of it. He should've ditched the "the died from bacteria" idea.

1) Not long enough.
2) That's the whole point of the story.

	10-07-2005 09:08									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Az He should've ditched the "the died from bacteria" idea.

And then pissed on H.G. Wells' corpse.

Advocating the rape of someone's work

Don't make a movie out of a book unless you are willing to follow the storyline already set forth by the author.

	10-07-2005 09:12									#67
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Well, let's not forget that the novel was set in London. In the 1890's. And had nothing to do with car chases or US Army battle scenes.

If you're gonna rape the corpse, might as well have a good money shot at the end, don't ya think?

	10-07-2005 09:13									#68
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Hey wait a minute, I just got home from seeing the movie and there were fountains of blood not to mention the rivers and pools of the red icky stuff.

	10-07-2005 09:23									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Theben 1) Not long enough. 2) That's the whole point of the story.

Unlike in Well's book though, Cruise was able to bring one down via an ( almost ) suicide bomb, so Spielberg could have had al Qaeda come to the rescue of humanity by bringing down the beasts with a flurry of explosive martyrdom. Of course, this might upset the movie reviewers who seem to have decided that Spielberg's War of the Worlds is some sort of analogy to the 9/11 attack. If the Islamic Jihad saved humanity in the movie then that would have put a whole new twist on the analogy.

	10-07-2005 09:34									#70
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There are scenes and shots that are reminiscent of 9/11, but the film isn't an analogy. Especially given that the source material was written 100 years prior.

However, I do think the case can be argued (perhaps not made, but argued) that the film represents a post-9/11 shift in Spielberg's acceptance of the alien. Almost 30 years ago he released a movie about space-beatniks who played disco music and dropped off artifacts in conveniently dry locations and only those people groovy enough to get the message were "called." 30 years later and there's no more space-hippies, no disco, no groovy human allies, just a bunch of death and destruction. It's kind of hard to believe the two movies, with diametrically opposite sentiments, came from the same director.

	10-07-2005 09:36									#71
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, let's not forget that the novel was set in London. In the 1890's. And had nothing to do with car chases or US Army battle scenes. If you're gonna rape the corpse, might as well have a good money shot at the end, don't ya think?

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure the movie was based more on the radio adaptation that he did, than the book itself, which explains the American setting.

Spielberg owns one of the few surviving, original copies of that radio program, BTW, which is what inspired him to do the film in the first place IIRC.

	10-07-2005 09:39									#72
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT However, I do think the case can be argued (perhaps not made, but argued) that the film represents a post-9/11 shift in Spielberg's acceptance of the alien. Almost 30 years ago he released a movie about space-beatniks who played disco music and dropped off artifacts in conveniently dry locations and only those people groovy enough to get the message were "called." 30 years later and there's no more space-hippies, just a bunch of death and destruction. It's kind of hard to believe the two movies, with diametrically opposite sentiments, came from the same director.

I disagree. That's like saying Robert Wise couldn't have directed Star Trek TMP, because he had previously directed Sound of Music - too very different movies. I think it just shows Spielberg doesn't treat every script the same, like some, especially when he is simply creating a film out of someone else's idea.

	10-07-2005 09:39									#73
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Am I the only one who noticed that the aliens were virtually a rip off of the Independence Day aliens? Their heads at least were almost copies. Who knows, maybe Spielberg bought left over props.

	10-07-2005 09:43									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I disagree. That's like saying Robert Wise couldn't have directed Star Trek TMP, because he had previously directed Sound of Music - too very different movies. I think it just shows Spielberg doesn't treat every script the same, like some, especially when he is simply creating a film out of someone else's idea.

But the sentiment in ST: TMP is just different from that in SOM. In the two movies I cited, it's a completely opposing viewpoint. Sorta like if Bergman made comedies featuring talking babies celebrating life - you're like "This is from the same guy who directed The Seventh Seal?"

(Not the best analogy, but it's nearly 1:00am here and that's as good an excuse as any. )

	10-07-2005 09:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Unlike in Well's book though, Cruise was able to bring one down via an ( almost ) suicide bomb, so Spielberg could have had al Qaeda come to the rescue of humanity by bringing down the beasts with a flurry of explosive martyrdom. Of course, this might upset the movie reviewers who seem to have decided that Spielberg's War of the Worlds is some sort of analogy to the 9/11 attack. If the Islamic Jihad saved humanity in the movie then that would have put a whole new twist on the analogy.

I just finished reading the book. In the book, the army took out one of them out with canons. The Tripods didn't have shields in the book. After that, the Martians started using the Black Smoke, some sort of chemical weapon.

Movie reviewers are idiots. One reviewer here wrote that Wells was thinking of the Nazis when he wrote the War of the Worlds. What an idot! He published it in 1898 for crying out loud! Some people see 9/11 everywhere, they're obsessed. And they seem to think that they're real insightful when doing so.

	10-07-2005 09:59									#76
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quote: Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure the movie was based more on the radio adaptation that he did, than the book itself, which explains the American setting.

It pretty much follows the book, with small modifications here and there.

	10-07-2005 10:03									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Am I the only one who noticed that the aliens were virtually a rip off of the Independence Day aliens? Their heads at least were almost copies. Who knows, maybe Spielberg bought left over props.

Everything in Independence Day was was a ripp off.

	10-07-2005 10:37									#78
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo It pretty much follows the book, with small modifications here and there.

And the radio adaptation followed the book as well, right? I'm just saying, I think I read that Spielberg had stated the radio version was what he was trying to recreate on film.

	10-07-2005 11:44									#79
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, let's not forget that the novel was set in London. In the 1890's. And had nothing to do with car chases or US Army battle scenes. If you're gonna rape the corpse, might as well have a good money shot at the end, don't ya think?

Yes, thank you. Precisely.

If he'd made an actual film version of the book, I'd oppose it, as well - this is NOT it.

quote: Unlike in Well's book though, Cruise was able to bring one down via an ( almost ) suicide bomb, so Spielberg could have had al Qaeda come to the rescue of humanity by bringing down the beasts with a flurry of explosive martyrdom. Of course, this might upset the movie reviewers who seem to have decided that Spielberg's War of the Worlds is some sort of analogy to the 9/11 attack. If the Islamic Jihad saved humanity in the movie then that would have put a whole new twist on the analogy.

I've been wondering about this actually - I wonder how bad were the aliens pwned around the Mid east. No need for sadly silly unscientific bacteria explanation.

	10-07-2005 11:55									#80
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Actually Az, I don't mind the ending (I read the original book when I was in the second grade so I knew what was coming.) After all, the purpose of the movie was to make people feel helpless, and the inability of people to fight back effectively, no matter what the weaponry, was integral to the entire feel. But that still leaves you with the conundrum: how do you beat the unbeatable?

	10-07-2005 12:38									#81
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Personally, I always let bacteria do my homework, and let them be my designated driver.

I mind the ending, because in terms of the movie it feels like it was pasted on the original film, because it's unscientific, and because it's damn silly. You'd think that an alien culture that bothered to bury giant hulking robots ( when did they bury those, btw?) and planned for an attack for decades would think of bacteria. I am not even going to start talking about the silliness of the "drinking humans" thing - It's completely irrational to think that a space faring civilization would use hunter-gatherer methods to feed themselves, or about the sillyness of bacteria being able to thrive in such a completely different host for such a short period of time.

I am willing to give any piece of sci-fi a very generous leeway in my suspension of disbelief, but this is too much for me to handle. The source of the aliens, their machinery, the battles against them, and their demise are all stacked sky-high against the plot.

This movie, and I guess the book as well, I haven't read it, is an ode to the "humans are sheep"-dust-in-the-wind-mother-nature-knows-best bullshit.

quote: how do you beat the unbeatable?

You don't. Or you do, by it being beatable under certain circumstances.

Imagine that the end of "Alien" would be the Alien tripping over a box and breaking their leg, to be easily picked off . That's the equivalent of this movie.

	10-07-2005 12:39									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Az Personally, I always let bacteria do my homework, and let them be my designated driver.

I just let the bacteria eat me homework

	10-07-2005 18:44									#83
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quote: This movie, and I guess the book as well, I haven't read it, is an ode to the "humans are sheep"-dust-in-the-wind-mother-nature-knows-best bullshit.

Actually, the book was more of a commentary by Wells on the effects of the Empire on the indigenous peoples. Imho, of course.

	10-07-2005 20:15									#84
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quote: You'd think that an alien culture that bothered to bury giant hulking robots ( when did they bury those, btw?) and planned for an attack for decades would think of bacteria.

In the book, the humans made an autopsy of a dead Martian and they didn't found any bacteria, except the ones they caught on earth. So the Martians were bacteria-free when they came to earth. Maybe the Martians eradicated bacteria a long, long time ago and completely forgot about them.

	10-07-2005 20:26									#85
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: This movie, and I guess the book as well, I haven't read it, is an ode to the "humans are sheep"-dust-in-the-wind-mother-nature-knows-best bullshit. Actually, the book was more of a commentary by Wells on the effects of the Empire on the indigenous peoples. Imho, of course.

You got it right imo. Like I pointed out in the other, legitimate thread

quote: Given Wells' purpose, the ending is adequate overall. Wells couldn't have the Humans defeat the Aliens. It would have defeated his purpose. War of the world is basically a put-yourself-in-their-shoes book. Wells was a citizen of the mighty British Empire and he asked his fellow countrymen to put themselves in the shoes of the "savages" they colonized, of the species they exterminated. Wells compares Humanities situation to the dodo's, who were exterminated by men. He writes : "Some respectable dodo in the in the Mauritius might have lorded it in his nest, and discussed the arrival of that shipful of pitiless sailors in want of food. "We will peck them to death tomorrow, my dear." It was hopeless. So there were two options, IMO: either we luck out or we get exterminated or enslaved. Diseases slowed down the colonization of Africa. Imagine what would have happened without the helping hand of these germs.

	10-07-2005 23:44									#86
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I saw the film yesterday. It was one of the worse scripts I've ever seen. The original idea is really poor by modern scifi standards (19th century science was much simpler you see), but Spielberg's script makes it worse. I'll rant about this later.

For now, something else came to mind:

Has anybody read "The years with the aliens" by Robert Silverberg?

In that book, the aliens occupy Earth for about 50 years and exterminate half it's population. The book tracks the doings of a family, or rather a dynasty, given the timescale and the genealogic details of the matter, of people starring in the resistance movement. Only that every attempt at resistance is answered by revenge acts of genocidal proportions. At the end...

spoiler(highlight to read): ...the aliens just pack up and leave, for their own unknown reasons, leaving the protagonists biting the hands out of spite, that it wasn't THEMSELVES that chased them out.

That book would have been more suitable for Mr. Spielberg to meddle with. Unfortunately he'd have to pay the author hefty royalties to use it, unlike WotW which is free.

	10-07-2005 23:53									#87
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quote: In the book, the humans made an autopsy of a dead Martian and they didn't found any bacteria, except the ones they caught on earth. So the Martians were bacteria-free when they came to earth. Maybe the Martians eradicated bacteria a long, long time ago and completely forgot about them.

They've "studied our civilization prior to attack" for presumably a very long period of time - and they haven't learned about microbes? I really hate doing this, but their analysis of the human anatomy certainly showed them bacteria. I am not even getting into the fact that bacteria take a lot of time to get used to a completely new host.

	11-07-2005 01:43									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Az They've "studied our civilization prior to attack" for presumably a very long period of time - and they haven't learned about microbes? I really hate doing this, but their analysis of the human anatomy certainly showed them bacteria.

Good question, but I don't have an answer. I grant fiction writers, even sci-fi writers, poetic license. So I'm willing to let this one pass. I agree, its unlikely, but its not scientifically impossible: they could have overlooked germs. And, anyhow, the point he's trying to make is more important than accurately modeling an alien invasion.

quote: I am not even getting into the fact that bacteria take a lot of time to get used to a completely new host.

Why is that? When the Europeans first arrived in Africa, didn't they get sick fairly rapidly? And when they arrived in the Americas, didn't the natives get sick fairly rapidly. Even if it took some time, I'm again willing to grant poetic license to Wells, otherwise his book would have been too long.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Wells' ending is perfect. Wells decided to write an happy ending and to keep things short. Silverberg's ending, described by Axi, is better. But Wells invented a new type of story, and that's a feat not many writers achieved.