10-07-2005 05:24									#31
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There are better ways to eliminate ICS, I'm sure. I don't like the idea of losing control. It's un-Civvish. Simply have a drawback to doing ICS. Civ3 tried a small step by making Settlers cost 2 pop. I'm sure Civ4 can take a bigger step that will be more succesfull .

	10-07-2005 05:38									#32
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http://media.pc.ign.com/media/620/6...mg_2872470.html

I look at this and see that cities are seemingly spread out more (by limitation or player design?). In this case, cities are functioning like city-states. I suspect, though, this is just a human player not using ICS.

	10-07-2005 06:21									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by yin26 quote: Eh, you obviously have no clue what the promotions are about if you think they have to do with production bonuses... You're missing the point. It does some minor X adjustment to some factor Y. I could care less really what the detail of it is because it's a ruse to get some people to think that something exciting is being done to the game. Obviously this tactic works on some people.

Except that it doesn't, and you just are pulling stuff out of your ass. Most of the promotions appear to have pretty powerful effects, many of them giving the unit actual new abilities (such as Medic) or significant enhancements that make them very distinct from others (such as Guerilla).

And I presume that your lack of response to any of my other points is a concession to each of them

	10-07-2005 07:41									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Again, missing the point. I don't need to play the game for months to see that the kinds of things there will make little to no difference in the game. You can report back to me in June, 2006 with the same conclusions, if you like. I just like to save time and money.

As for *FINALLY* fixing some of the most God-awfully constructed parts of the game that were dead weight from Day 1, all I have to say is: Get your $50 bucks ready, sucker.

	10-07-2005 10:20									#35
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Again, missing the point. I don't need to play the game for months to see that the kinds of things there will make little to no difference in the game.

Funny, you haven't provided any justification for this. Removal of corruption is a pretty fundamental change, and will obviously make a difference. Same with civics, which I was against before but am tentatively for now that I've seen them.

quote: As for *FINALLY* fixing some of the most God-awfully constructed parts of the game that were dead weight from Day 1, all I have to say is: Get your $50 bucks ready, sucker.

They were dead weight from Day 1 of Civ 1, then.

	10-07-2005 14:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 http://media.pc.ign.com/media/620/6...mg_2872470.html I look at this and see that cities are seemingly spread out more (by limitation or player design?). In this case, cities are functioning like city-states. I suspect, though, this is just a human player not using ICS.

I don't want to be pessimistic myself but when I looked longer at that screenshot noticed I something: the squares are much bigger, but the number of squares between cities seems to be the same as in civ3. Between some cities are only 2 squares.

	10-07-2005 14:46									#37
	Got spare money?

yin26 >>
You should try SMAC. The government system Civ4 will use is the same system as they use in SMAC and it does have a huge effect on the game (compared to normal Civ1-3 governments)...

	10-07-2005 16:39									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Removal of corruption is a pretty fundamental change, and will obviously make a difference.

I just see things like that making the game easier, actually. If they simultaneously make the game simpler AND more thought-provoking, that's one thing.

quote: They were dead weight from Day 1 of Civ 1, then.

Yes, they were, but when Civ 1 was released those many years ago, it took us a while to beat the system. In other words, the dead weight was much, much easier to ignore because the game was fresh.

quote: but the number of squares between cities seems to be the same as in civ3.

Of course it's too early to say, but if THAT'S going to be the 'solution' to ICS --forcing more distance between cities via tile restrictions-- then we do have a city-state game...which might be interesting, though I wish, then, we were seeing more an emphasis on the state part than the city. Yes, that wouldn't be "Civish."

quote: You should try SMAC.

There were parts of SMAC I thought were innovative and fun (talk about some RPG elements in a TBS!), but overall I think it was a game just outside Brian's grasp. A wonderful failure, let's call it. But one of the things that I liked were those twists on government flavors, if only because it gave me something new to think about. I don't think, however, that this really changed the game all that much.

My concern here, as always, would be: How well can the AI exploit these mechanisms? We won't know, of course, but on the one hand they seem to be eliminating things that are a detriment to the player (corruption, for example) while potentially introducing things (thousands? of political combinations) that are likely to be lost on the AI, which will likely adhere to some pretty simple rule sets.

But on this last point, I'll honestly have to hear reports from the first play testers --I mean game owners!-- when it's released.

	10-07-2005 16:42									#39
	Put an end to popups!

quote: You've got 3125 possible government options in Civ4. If that isn't enough stuff to do for you, I don't know what is.

By the way, on this point, I just have to say: And there are 500,000 (and counting) ways to say 'Hello' in the morning, but that doesn't make the event any more challenging or interesting. Makes great marketing, though.

	10-07-2005 16:51									#40
	Put an end to popups!

Yin, if churning out Settlers en masse and getting to 15 cities ASAP isn't the dominant strat anymore, ICS will be beaten. If a civ with 8 cities will be able to be strong, ICS will be beaten. If a civ that is not the largest population wise can win, it will be even better.

As for AI handling Civics and that stuff, trust Soren. He's a damn good coder, and did a very good job on the Civ3 AI given that he did it alone and in very little time. This time around, the situation is better.

Mind you, brilliant concepts in a game aren't always a solution. Yes I'm opposed to anything not-Civvish, but that's not why I'm saying that. I mean SMAC. It had a numer of awesome concepts and it was a complex game. The biggest downside of SMAC was the absolute inability of the AI to deal with the game. There were many concepts in the game that the AI didn't understand and use at all, such as supply crawlers, which were at the same time probably the most powerful tool for humans.

If Civ4 fixes the several main problems of Civ - ICS (hopefully fixed), ridicilous combat (appears to be fixed) and the 100 Worker problem (I'm really hopeful) - plus adds some new stuff like religions and civics, it will be very good. If the AI is able to understand those concepts and provide a fair challenge, then we're looking at an excellent game.

	10-07-2005 16:52									#41
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 By the way, on this point, I just have to say: And there are 500,000 (and counting) ways to say 'Hello' in the morning, but that doesn't make the event any more challenging or interesting. Makes great marketing, though.

Poor comparison . If it isn't obvious to you that 3125 civic combinations are more fun in gameplay terms than 6 governments, then nothing will help you .

	10-07-2005 17:06									#42
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Well, a Civ game with only 8 cities presents its own problems, of course: Civ mechanics are built at the core for the player to be running many cities by mid to late game (this was abused, of course). If the number of cities really is that reduced, I'm even more worried that the rest of the game won't be interesting enough. At least with lots of cities you have to do a least some minimal checking in with your population, etc. Don't get me wrong, though, this tended to amount to little more than dull housekeeping...but at least it ate up time! What would 8 cities play like without robust diplomacy and the rest of it? On this point, I'm going to wait to get people's feedback upon release.

quote: If it isn't obvious to you that 3125 civic combinations are more fun in gameplay terms than 6 governments, then nothing will help you.

O.K., then: The SMAC workshop. How many possible combinations of build? And how fun was it? Worse yet, how well did the computer AI use it?

	10-07-2005 17:14									#43
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Well, a Civ game with only 8 cities presents its own problems, of course: Civ mechanics are built at the core for the player to be running many cities by mid to late game (this was abused, of course). If the number of cities really is that reduced, I'm even more worried that the rest of the game won't be interesting enough. At least with lots of cities you have to do a least some minimal checking in with your population, etc. Don't get me wrong, though, this tended to amount to little more than dull housekeeping...but at least it ate up time! What would 8 cities play like without robust diplomacy and the rest of it? On this point, I'm going to wait to get people's feedback upon release.

I didn't say you would be limited to that, but rather that having few cities would be a viable choice. Time taken, hmm. It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. What fun is it to check 30 cities each turn to see if one of them isn't going to riot? Hopefully in Civ4, you can use your time to really do the fun stuff - improve your cities, do research, etc. And obviously in any Civ game, if you're at war, turns take long, I expect this to still be the case in Civ4 because there's no other possibility.

People's feedback upon release, dammit .

quote: O.K., then: The SMAC workshop. How many possible combinations of build? And how fun was it? Worse yet, how well did the computer AI use it?

Those are not separate issues, it's the SAME issue. The workshop with its many combinations was terrifically fun. The problem was indeed that the AI couldn't use it and went with a few of the same basics designs always. Since you could build units tailored specifically to your needs and the AI could not, it just added to the problem of rolling over the AI with a steamroller on steroids. Yet in MP it's fun because MP opponents could use it. If the Civ4 AI can use the Civ4 civics, it will be good fun.

	10-07-2005 17:33									#44
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by yin26 quote: If it isn't obvious to you that 3125 civic combinations are more fun in gameplay terms than 6 governments, then nothing will help you. O.K., then: The SMAC workshop. How many possible combinations of build? And how fun was it? Worse yet, how well did the computer AI use it?

You've got a point there

But at least we know the government part of SMAC was better than it was in Civ

	10-07-2005 19:15									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have to leave for work right now, so I can't be arsed to see if diplomacy has already been mentioned in this thread.

But it does seems to me that there is substantial innovation in diplomacy for Civ 4.

	10-07-2005 20:09									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Poor comparison . If it isn't obvious to you that 3125 civic combinations are more fun in gameplay terms than 6 governments, then nothing will help you .

I dunno. More can often be less. I could see people getting bewildered and turned off by the array of options available to them. Not to say I think it will happen, but just to counter the premature "more is better."

	10-07-2005 22:17									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I could see people getting bewildered and turned off by the array of options available to them.

Yes, people who want a game that is as simple to play as Doom .

	10-07-2005 22:20									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There's thousands of flavours of ice cream. Most of them are crap, though. Is there really a choice when your options are between vanilla and squid ink icecream?

	10-07-2005 22:49									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by yin26 quote: Removal of corruption is a pretty fundamental change, and will obviously make a difference. I just see things like that making the game easier, actually. If they simultaneously make the game simpler AND more thought-provoking, that's one thing.

They've replaced it with something else. Do actually learn about the game before you shoot your mouth off about it. Again.

quote: Yes, they were, but when Civ 1 was released those many years ago, it took us a while to beat the system. In other words, the dead weight was much, much easier to ignore because the game was fresh.

So civ2 must have sucked, too, since the game wasn't fresh.

quote: My concern here, as always, would be: How well can the AI exploit these mechanisms? We won't know, of course, but on the one hand they seem to be eliminating things that are a detriment to the player (corruption, for example) while potentially introducing things (thousands? of political combinations) that are likely to be lost on the AI, which will likely adhere to some pretty simple rule sets.

Since you have no experience here, and since we know they're putting a lot into the AI now, I see this as just BS posturing to convince yourself that the game can't possibly be good.

	10-07-2005 22:58									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

57 knit five, purl two together, knit five
58 purl four, cast two back, cast two forward, purl four
59 knit three, twist two forward, purl two together, twist two back, knit three
60 purl two, twist two back, cast two back, cast two forward, twist two forward, purl two
61 knit one, twist two forward, knit one, purl four, knit one, twist two back, knit two
61 twist two back, purl one, knit two, purl one, twist two forward
62 knit two, purl one, knit one, purl one, knit one, purl one, knit two
63 purl one, twist two back, purl one, knit two, purl one, twist two forward, purl one
64 knit two, purl one, knit two, purl two together, purl one, knit two
65 purl two, make bobble, purl two, knit two, purl two, make bobble, purl two
theocratic police state!!!
66 knit five, purl two together, knit five
67 purl four, cast two back, cast two forward, purl four
68 knit three, twist two forward, purl two together, twist two back, knit three
69 purl two, twist two back, cast two back, cast two forward, twist two forward, purl two
70 knit one, twist two forward, knit one, purl four, knit one, twist two back, knit two
71 twist two back, purl one, knit two, purl one, twist two forward
72 knit two, purl one, knit one, purl one, knit one, purl one, knit two
73 purl one, twist two back, purl one, knit two, purl one, twist two forward, purl one
74 knit two, purl one, knit two, purl two together, purl one, knit two
76 purl two, make bobble, purl two, knit two, purl two, make bobble, purl two

blast! missed a stitch,..

	11-07-2005 02:49									#51
	Re: So Basically We Have Civ 3...but in 3D? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by yin26 The last time that formula worked was when Sid turned Civ 2 over to Brian Reynolds. Problem is, Brian is a superstar. Speaking of, anybody seen what Rise of Legends is doing with graphics? There's a case where the graphics upgrades actually look to add something significant to the game...not to mention that BHG seems determined to push the envelope a little bit ... ... Civ 1 --> Civ 2 --> Civ 2.5 --> (and now) Civ 2.7 By my account, we'll have a true Civ 3 released in 2012 -- but only after a hostile take over of the Civ franchise by BHG.

Hmm, with all the praise for BHG I wonder if you work there?

Meh, Reynolds is a hack - I liked Rise of Nations better back when it was called Age of Empires. And how about that SMAC AI?

But I also think you're dead right that Civ suffers from an "economy of scale problem." One simply cannot have a competetive civiliation that is small in Civ. This of course goes against reality where Japan and Switzerland are far more productive than such land giants as Chad, Nigeria, or Mexico. I hold out little hope that the latest iteration will do anything about this problem.

	11-07-2005 04:54									#52
	Remove this text

quote: They've replaced it with something else. Do actually learn about the game before you shoot your mouth off about it. Again.

I'm up to speed on the game. You don't get it, right?

quote: So civ2 must have sucked, too, since the game wasn't fresh.

It's the law of diminishing returns at some point if you don't take the game in new directions. Civ 2 was early enough on in the series that relatively small improvements (not to mention just making the game look good on modern machines of the time) was enough. And in an era when most sequels crash and burn, Reynolds did a great job overall. Now are you telling me Civ 3 was a success? And now you think Civ 4 is going to be one as well? Again, pay your $50. Doesn't harm me any.

EDIT: By the way, I mean success as in a great game...not a Sid seller.

quote: Since you have no experience here, and since we know they're putting a lot into the AI now, I see this as just BS posturing to convince yourself that the game can't possibly be good.

Oh but I do have experience with this one. We all do! Some of us just ignore it. "Putting a lot into the AI." Hilarious!

quote: I hold out little hope that the latest iteration will do anything about this problem.

Of course, for many here, this "problem" is just classic Civ flavor. Go figure. As for Reynolds, I'll give you that RON was a knock off. He basically admits as much. But he did innovate to some admirable degree with it (I won't rehash that here), and it did get RTS of the year in some places.

I'm looking at Rise of Lengends to tell us the true story of the man. He's got a longer rope to hang himself now (perhaps the longest he has ever had, actually). But you have to admit the screen shots look really good, and I think some of the gameplay possibilities look good, too.

SMAC, as I've said, was something of a failure IMO. Some awful bugs really killed it for me, though I did see some honest attempts to do some interesting things in that game.

	11-07-2005 05:47									#53
	Tired of ads?

quote: It's the law of diminishing returns at some point if you don't take the game in new directions. Civ 2 was early enough on in the series that relatively small improvements (not to mention just making the game look good on modern machines of the time) was enough. And in an era when most sequels crash and burn, Reynolds did a great job overall. Now are you telling me Civ 3 was a success?

Yes. It fixed a lot that was broken - it made ICS a strategy, not an exploit, for instance - and *most* people have moved over.

quote: Oh but I do have experience with this one.

You've played it, have you?

	11-07-2005 08:46									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If the game looks like ass, I might not hang around long enough for the gamplay. 2d

	11-07-2005 11:37									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hey Yin!! Anyone who praises a crappy game like 'Rise of Nations', over Civilization, has got to have his head sooooo far up is *you know where* that he simply can't see straight. Truth is, I bought Rise of Nations for around $30 Australian dollars and guess how many times I played it before I got bored? Twice, and now its sitting in a corner gathering dust. Why? Because it was nothing more than a boring little 'click-fest' with no overarching goals or strategy to hold it all together. If this is the best thing that Brian Reynolds can create by himself, then all I can say is that he made a huge mistake leaving the Firaxis team.
Give me a game like Civ3, which I have played hundreds of times without it ever losing its gloss, over these grotesque RTS 'Churn and Burns'-games which seem to be designed for simpletons who are attracted more to pretty colours and bright lights than half-way decent strategy or gameplay. In fact, Yin, given how little you have contributed to the Civilization forums-and how much you apparently hate the entire franchise-why don't you go off and play your little kiddy games, and leave the more in-depth adult strategy to the rest of us?

Aussie_Lurker.

	11-07-2005 12:15									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well Yin has always built his 'reputation' as a pessimist . It's his reason for being. He cannot praise Civ, it's just not in him.

Hi Yin .

	11-07-2005 12:19									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh, I know Yin from waaaaayyyy back. Glad to see he is still such a 'misery guts' . I am personally quite happy to listen to people criticise things, but I usually expect a rational and dispassionate argument-not a 'Its Civ, its not Rise of Nations-therefore I hate it!'. That is just stupid....but, as you said, Imran, this is Yin we are talking about, so I guess intelligence is just too much to ask for !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	11-07-2005 14:32									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wow. Flame bait!

Nah, it's pretty clear the problems with the franchise, and I've been clear that the problem isn't the core game but that we're now on the 4th version of it with nothing really to show for it than a horrible 3rd version building onto --from everything we've seen-- a lackluster "new" installment.

And I can't help it if RON was too hard for some people. Stick with checkers.

	11-07-2005 14:41									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

By the way, anybody who would like to read about Rise of Nations --and how Gamespot awarded it Strategy Game of the Year-- can go here: http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/fe...03/day4_24.html So if you didn't like RON, you didn't understand it (or sucked at it). That or you just don't like RTS, which is fine, but at least it innovated in its genre.

Civ, like I said, is dead (until another company takes it over and does it right). Sorry if this makes some people sad.

	11-07-2005 14:45									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Try to check out this game in progress:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdis...=254&daysprune=

Maybe that's more to your liking?

Don't expect this game to be released soon though