15-07-2005 02:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin The almightly government is not supposed to fight crime unless you have a weird judicial system.

Meh. The police fights crime, the police is an arm of the government, therefore the government fights crime. All the rest is semantics.

	15-07-2005 02:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I would find that hard to believe, as there are a lot of cameras here. There are something like 7,000 on the Underground system alone, plus every train carriage and most buses have them. Its not an exaggeration to say that wherever you are in the streets of London you can spot at least one camera.

WOW, but you might be surprised. There's at least 50 in our office building alone. And there's a lot of office buildings, but I guarentee there aren't 7000 in the underground here. I guess we have some catching up to do.

	15-07-2005 02:38									#33
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I was about to say that CCTV doesn't count toward the total, but I guess it might.

	15-07-2005 02:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Personally I don't fully appreciate the privacy argument, assuming that the CCTV is in a public place. You are in a public place where anyone can see you, so why be overly concerned that you are being seen by a camera. Its highly unlikely that the footage would ever be used except when a crime has been commited or there is good porn. Its not in anyone's interest to waste time watching the footage otherwise.

	15-07-2005 03:22									#35
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quote: Originally posted by rah WOW, but you might be surprised. There's at least 50 in our office building alone. And there's a lot of office buildings, but I guarentee there aren't 7000 in the underground here. I guess we have some catching up to do.

A google search has the WSJ stating there are 500,000 cameras in London.


http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...ff_main_tff_top

quote: The British capital has more surveillance cameras monitoring its citizens than any other major city in the world. The highly visible gadgets are posted on the corners of many buildings, on new buses and in every subway station. Since 2003, the license plate of every car driving into central London during weekdays is filmed as part of a program to reduce traffic congestion. London charges a fee to cars and also uses the films to catch and fine cheats. In all, there are at least 500,000 cameras in the city, and one study showed that in a single day a person could expect to be filmed 300 times.

	15-07-2005 03:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Rule of thumb: If you were in charge and in control of such system, what would you do?

Obviously being a paranoid fascist, I'd use it to track down my enemys and slaughter them in a dark alleyway.

Seriously? Absolutely nothing unless a crime was committed and the footage could be used to help identify the criminal(s).

	15-07-2005 04:57									#37
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And the crime committed doesn't even need to be where the camera is taking its pictures. Some of the cases that stand out where cameras have played an important role have been where they positively identified and placed a suspect at another place or time than what he'd told the police. Cameras are great for picking apart the story of a crime suspect, provided the police know where to look of course. The ones in stations and public transportation seem especially useful.

	15-07-2005 05:00									#38
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When the technology allows efficient monitoring, those cameras will be used in no time for political repression.

	15-07-2005 05:01									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris When the technology allows efficient monitoring, those cameras will be used in no time for political repression.

Yeah, fit them all with vaporising lasers!

	15-07-2005 05:03									#40
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People who practice and express their political views in a lawful and non-violent way are not being "repressed" today, why would they be in the future just because the camera technology evolves?

	15-07-2005 05:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Winston People who practice and express their political views in a lawful and non-violent way are not being repressed today, why would they be in the future just because the camera technology evolves?

That's just not true, more often than not the police provokes demonstrators into violence.

Like yeah, we're so free, we have to ask the police permission before demonstrating.

	15-07-2005 05:07									#42
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I agree you don't have freedom of speech. Hate speech laws

	15-07-2005 05:09									#43
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We're always just a step away from repression. Take for instance Canada, a suposedly peaceful country. In '70, following the rapt of a minister, the Canadian police used a list of the PQ members (separatist party) stolen from their headquarters to arrest pretty much anyone holding a meaningful position in the party.

	15-07-2005 05:10									#44
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"...police provokes demonstrators into violence."

My impression is some of the protestors need to work a little on their provocation tolerance levels.

	15-07-2005 05:13									#45
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Actually, no. The police usually requires that demonstrators ask for the permission to demonstrate. Failure to comply usually means everyone in the demonstration will be arrested. Think about it a second. You have to ask the government... the permission to protest against it.

	15-07-2005 05:17									#46
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Of course they do, not "usually", always. Police are responsible for keeping order on the streets. Think about it for a moment. Assigning a different route for a protest march is not repression.

This is evolving into a threadjack though. Start a new one.

	15-07-2005 06:08									#47
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Right you are. When the cameras and the technology are there, they'll draw the identity of every protester from the footage. Talk about keeping order.

	15-07-2005 09:24									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Winston People who practice and express their political views in a lawful and non-violent way are not being "repressed" today, why would they be in the future just because the camera technology evolves?

if all people throughout history acted in a lawful and non-violent way we would not have countries such as the United States of America. hint: this is a bad thing.

Civil disobedience is a good thing. It has helped with racial inequality in america.

	15-07-2005 09:33									#49
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quote: It could be argued that such a system will make it easier for a police state to gain power.

Man, I know you don't fully believe in this argument yourself, because of the way you worded it.

Sure, it "could be used"... but so is everything else about the government. Democracy and the rule of people isn't about the system of government, but about how jaded and cynical are the people about it - the less they are and the more they're planning to do about it, the longer will Democracy survive. Remember civics class? Formal democracy against the real one?

	15-07-2005 12:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Obviously being a paranoid fascist, I'd use it to track down my enemys and slaughter them in a dark alleyway. Seriously? Absolutely nothing unless a crime was committed and the footage could be used to help identify the criminal(s).

There is a lot of gray territorry between being a paranoid fascist and a pure democrat.

Say you're an elected president, running for reelection. Wont it be mighty nice to have a list of people who only now began going to rallies or conventions of the opposite party? Such people are on the brink of not voting for you, and now is exactly the time to give them a call or a visit by your activists and try to change their minds. And there you go, another 1% for the vote goes to you.
This is of course only one example.

Again, and also in response to Az's last post, I'm not arguing against the idea in it's entirety. Just keep in mind that it has enormous potential for abuse and that it should be considered on a much broader level than merely it's crime-fighting capabilities.

And as for civics class... Well, it bored the hell out of me(I blame the teacher, the material itself is fascinating) and I improvised through the final examination all the way to a shameful 60.

	15-07-2005 16:31									#51
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England has 10 million CCTV cameras, 10% of the world total. At least half a million of those are in London. They aren't all government cameras though. But a proportion are, including the 7,000 on the tube and one or two on every bus. Not sure how many busses there are, enough to carry 5.3 million people a day.

Apparently Chicago has 2,250 government ones according to this article:

http://washingtontimes.com/national...15914-9317r.htm

ie.

London pwns Chicago.

	15-07-2005 16:31									#52
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The investigation into the tube/bus bombers would have been progressing much, much slower if it wasn't for the CCTV footage.

	15-07-2005 16:35									#53
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Then again, Greater London has 7.4 million people and Chicago under 3m.

	15-07-2005 18:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Eli There is a lot of gray territorry between being a paranoid fascist and a pure democrat. Say you're an elected president, running for reelection. Wont it be mighty nice to have a list of people who only now began going to rallies or conventions of the opposite party? Such people are on the brink of not voting for you, and now is exactly the time to give them a call or a visit by your activists and try to change their minds. And there you go, another 1% for the vote goes to you. This is of course only one example.

I don't know what to tell you, Eli. I'm sorry you're so paranoid that you'd use anything you possibly could to further your aims if you were in that position. You asked what I would do, and I told you. I think Az pretty much covered the rest.

	15-07-2005 18:52									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Apparently Chicago has 2,250 government ones according to this article: http://washingtontimes.com/national...15914-9317r.htm ie. London pwns Chicago.

That sounds about right for government ones but it may be a tad low depending on how dated the information is. That would be only a small percentage of them in Chicago since most are private security. But I'm sure there's nowhere near 500,000.

	15-07-2005 20:48									#56
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quote: I agree you don't have freedom of speech. Hate speech laws

yeah, sad thing we have more freedom in the city than we do on the universities.

Free speech in Canada.

	15-07-2005 20:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Then again, Greater London has 7.4 million people and Chicago under 3m.

FYI: Metro Chicago has 9.4 million people. Then again, it appears that the Washington Times really only references the city of Chicago proper, which is, as you say, less than 3 million.

	15-07-2005 22:40									#58
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CCTV is Great. On underpasses, bicycles sheds, busy local roundabouts, parks, high streets and private homes . Each camera is like a little bubble of security

	15-07-2005 22:45									#59
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Two cameras for every street;

Uh, streets are kinda big. Two cameras for every streetlight would make a lot more sense.

	16-07-2005 01:42									#60
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Thank god for CCTV!

quote: Enumclaw-area animal-sex case investigated By Jennifer Sullivan Seattle Times staff reporter King County sheriff's detectives are investigating the owners of an Enumclaw-area farm after a Seattle man died from injuries sustained while having sex with a horse boarded on the property. Investigators first learned of the farm after the man died at Enumclaw Community Hospital July 2. The county Medical Examiner's Office ruled that the death was accidental and the result of having sex with a horse. A surveillance camera picked up the license plate of the car that dropped the man off at the hospital, which led detectives to the farm and other people involved, said sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart. Deputies don't believe a crime occurred because bestiality is not illegal in Washington state and the horse was uninjured, said Urquhart. But because investigators found chickens, goats and sheep on the property, they are looking into whether animal cruelty — which is a crime — was committed by having sex with these smaller, weaker animals, he said. The farm was talked about in Internet chat rooms as a destination for people looking to have sex with livestock, he said. "A significant number of people, we believe, have likely visited this farm," said Urquhart. The Humane Society of the United States intends to use the case during the next state legislative session as an example of why sex with animals should be outlawed in Washington, said Bob Reder, a Humane Society regional director in Seattle. "This and a few other cases that we have will allow us a platform to talk about sex abuse of animals," Reder said. Thirty-three states ban sex with animals, he said. Susan Michaels, co-founder of local animal-rights organization Pasado's Safe Haven, said she has been fighting to have bestiality made illegal. "It's animal cruelty behind closed doors," Michaels said. Jennifer Sullivan: 206-464-8294 or jensullivan@seattletimes.com The Associated Press contributed to this report.