18-07-2005 15:36									#31
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Perhaps a slider to split science funding/effort into theoretical and applied? A high priority on theoretical would give the theory quicker but maybe only one of several practical applications of that theory whilst lower theoretical research would give the theory after a longer time but would mean more into applied and yield two or three of the practical applications?

The main drawback I can forsee with this is that humans being humans would try and get to nuclear fission theory and build A-bombs whilst the AI is still using archers. I suppose that could be stopped by linking the "cost" of the next theoretical advance to the number of practical applications of the previous theory you know?

Obsolete techs could be dealt with by a random technology spread as with CK. So old techs become known more widely once they are no longer secret.

	28-07-2005 09:12									#32
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"Future wife"?

Boy am I ever out of touch. Way to go Vel!

	29-07-2005 10:01									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Az I say that the key lies in separating Science and technology. That's how I've always felt, but I don't know how to impliment this...

Okay, I am back

I pointed the same thing out a long time ago on the Civ 3 forum. My suggestion was to separate discoveries and inventions. Discoveries are facts about nature people find out, e.g. the periodic table, while inventions are things/ideas based on these facts.

A way to implement this is to have two areas a player can allocate resources: Basic Research and Applied Research. Basic Research has a number of areas such as physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, etc. Each of these areas can be allocated a percentage of the resources put into Basic Research, although a 0% in an area initiates a long declining process (deterioration of facilities, loss of researchers, etc.)

Once a discovery (e.g. genetic code) has been made it becomes an item in Applied Research. A player can allocate resources to various discrete items in Applied Research to try getting useful stuff out of them. For example, Oxidation-Reduction Theory may produce High Explosives, which in turn is one of the prerequsites for the Engineer unit.

You can make this more elaborate by making some discoveries the prerequisites for other discoveries (e.g. you don't get Theory of Gravity until you get Calculus).

Resources can be in a number of forms, for example RP (Research Points). RP not only depends on funds (money) but also a host of other factors such as the education level of your population, racial traits, advanced research facilities (including universities) available, etc. RP generated in one turn can be allocated during the next turn; unused RP are lost (or maybe stored, your call).

Diminishing returns works here. The more RP you put in any one area in Basic or Applied Research the less the increase in output you will get. For example, if there are ten areas in Basic Research the optimal allocation is 10% in each of the areas. You can see where I am going with this - making R&P a long and gradual process.

One thing that is important is a player should never know when a breakthrough can be made. Afterall, this is about going into uncharted territory.

Okay, now the randomness. Indeed, a lot of discoveries are results of sheer serendipity and/or dumb luck. So some randomness is needed, to add spice if nothing else. However this is a game, so it needs a way of balancing out the randomness. For example, if a player gets lucky, the software won't let him getting lucky again until after every other player gets his or her lucky turn.

Clearly, such a separation is much harder to carry out in a historical game (e.g. Civ) than a modern (e.g. HoI) or sci-fi (e.g. Alpha Centauri).

	01-08-2005 13:10									#34
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bump

	31-08-2005 05:40									#35
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Hey! Had almost forgotten about this thread...re-read the entire thing and there's a lot of gold in this one.

RedFred...thank you sir! We're one month and a week from M-Day!

UR....that's quite possibly one of the BEST tech systems I've seen yet!

I love it!

It would take a LOT of thought to put together a nested system along those lines, but well worth the effort, methinks.

Not sure I can invent something of that complexity quickly enough (well, not and do the idea justice, in any case) to fit into the beta version of CB, but I'm thinking something like that almost HAS TO be included as the game matures.

In two words...it rocketh...

-=Vel=-

	31-08-2005 06:57									#36
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Hi Vel, if my idea gives you some help, great It's still in a very coarse form and needs much refining.

Civilization was a fantastic game with lots of great ideas when it came out. Since then hardware has made huge leaps in progress. So what used to be approximations can and should be converted into detailed models. The game should still be easy to play, but with a lot of things going on underneath the surface. Just like an iceberg

	01-09-2005 15:13									#37
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Couldn't agree more! And the idea really is an excellent one!

-=Vel=-

	01-09-2005 15:45									#38
	Put an end to popups!

It seems that most hardcore gamers think. I was having this conversation about three weeks ago with Siro - we need a deeper economics engine. A HUGE one. That can be both tweaked and left for the AI. Also, we need simultaneous movement turns.

	02-09-2005 06:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Az It seems that most hardcore gamers think.

Of course we do

quote: Originally posted by Az I was having this conversation about three weeks ago with Siro - we need a deeper economics engine. A HUGE one. That can be both tweaked and left for the AI. Also, we need simultaneous movement turns.

I was also thinking about a revamped population model. One bit at a time, I guess. How else could we have a successive series of games if we put everything out the door at once?