23-07-2005 01:17									#31
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quote: If you want to remove shantitowns, just build public housing for the shanty's inhabitants.

See my remarks above in response to che...

quote: Building government projects doesn't force these folks into the functioning housing market. Now you may say that this payoff to the poor is worth it, at least from an expediency point of view, but I'm not so sure.

	23-07-2005 01:21									#32
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quote: Building government projects doesn't force these folks into the functioning housing market. Now you may say that this payoff to the poor is worth it, at least from an expediency point of view, but I'm not so sure.

I don't understand what you mean. In the 1960's France, at least, everybody had an actual housing, except for the marginals that wished to be homeless. The housing was functional, with clean normal hygiene conditions and acceptable connectivity to the rewst of the cities.

I don't know if the police destroyed the shanties once the public housing was built. But in any case, the shanty population has disappeared. And not because of crime or disease.

	23-07-2005 01:22									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I have never seen one first hand.

I would guess that people in some European countries have seen honest to goodness shanties. See Gypsies.

	23-07-2005 01:25									#34
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quote: I don't understand what you mean.

Building public housing is not a solution. Rather, it's just moving the poor from one non-market for housing to another non-market for housing.

	23-07-2005 01:28									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would guess that people in some European countries have seen honest to goodness shanties. See Gypsies.

Indeed, I even had a permanent Gypsy settlement right next to my Uni in Bordeaux ("permanent" in that it was systematically renewed by new gypsies - it wasn't a group of sedentary gypsies)

Incidentally, the Gypsies squatted the Uni grounds because the Bordeaux area didn't provide adequate land for gypsies (with running water and trash disposal), despite the law.

	23-07-2005 01:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Building public housing is not a solution. Rather, it's just moving the poor from one non-market for housing to another non-market for housing.

You're assuming that market is the only possible solution. It's patently absurd.

	23-07-2005 01:32									#37
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we have gypsies in america too. But they live in actual dwellings (though shitty ones). They still beg for everything though.

We have so many peopel beg in our city. And they aren't all homeless. These guys probably make more money than I do. I bet you they can make $20 an hour begging. That's more money than I make. These *******s should be giving me money. I refuse to give them any money.

	23-07-2005 01:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You're assuming that market is the only possible solution. It's patently absurd.

Even in the socialist utopia of France, the vast majority of housing is provided using markets. It's just the way things work.

	23-07-2005 01:41									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Even in the socialist utopia of France, the vast majority of housing is provided using markets. It's just the way things work.

at "socialist utopia"

Yes, the majority. Not all of them. Public housing provides an actual solution to those who couldn't find housing on the market, because private housing is too expansive.

Problem = people live in Shantitowns in extremely fragile conditions.
Solution = people live in actual housing, with proper living conditions.

Public housing has provided the solution to the problem.


You may identify the problem differently. To you, the problem may not be the dire conditions of the shanties, but simply the fact that soome people do escape the market. I'm sorry to tell you that I couldn't care less about the level of penetration of the market. The market is merely one means among others to allocate resources, and it should be supported only when it is more efficient at better the human condition than the other resource-allocation schemes.

Obviously, the housing of the poor is not among these cases.

	23-07-2005 01:52									#40
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If you were in a communist system, public housing would be an actual solution, but France relies on markets to provide housing and is not communist. If there are problems with the housing market, then the solution is to fix the market.

I'm not casting stones at France. We have loads of anti-market land provisions in the US (probably more than most countries), such as overzealous zoning, which leads utlimately to the market not being able to provide for the housing needs of everyone.

Last edited by DanS on 23-07-2005 at 01:59

	23-07-2005 02:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If there are problems with the housing market, then the solution is to fix the market.

You're assuming that the market can fix the problem. The "solution" the market provides to poor housing is much worse than the one provided by the State:
1. The poor have trouble paying rent. Even cheap ones. In a "perfect" market, the poor would be fired from the house immediately, but in my civilized country, you can't expel a fragile family during the cold months. There are many safeties for the inhabitant, that are precisely in place to avoid the untold misery that was found in shantitowns.

2. In my "socialist utopia", there are also regulations on the housing market. You can't rent a housing of less than 9 m² (well, now you can, actually ). A bathroom must be available. There are demands about the hygiene of the bathroom, of the plumbing, and other santiary regulations. Obviously, private housing has a minimal cost, which is fairly high by the standards of an impoverished family.

3. As a result, the few entrepreneurs who still intend to make a profit by hosting the poor will ofer the most dire living conditions they can legally, and they'll charge a price much higher than what the State provides. They manage to get customers that need a "quick fix", while they look for an appropriate solution.
The ones who excel at this job are cheap hostels. Hostels don't have the same regulations about size, and can demand a payment each day. And naturally, staying at a hostel is much more expansive than paying an actual rent, which creates a spiral of debt and fragility. People go there simply because the State doesn't do its job anymore, and doesn't provide the housing that the market simply can't.

	23-07-2005 02:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would guess that people in some European countries have seen honest to goodness shanties. See Gypsies.

The shantitowns that I've seen in Europe were all in southern European countries (i.e. Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc.). You can see them along major highways and on the municipals borders of big cities. Living in Barcelona, one could see farmers' shanties on the train to El Prat de Llobregat and by the autopistas near the Cruzcampo brewery northeast of the city. There used to be large shanties near the convention center full of gypsies, transients, migrants, etc., but the whole area was bulldozed and redeveloped into a hideous conference center. Grenada had them along the hills in town.

Shanties and squats are everywhere, even here in the states. There is a squat/crackhouse on my block and an abandoned house that is occasionally squatted in behind my place. I've seen shanty towns only in the real backwoods and rural areas of the U.S., like in central Wyoming and the mountains of Nevada.

Moral of the story: They're everywhere.

	23-07-2005 02:53									#43
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I have not checked my dictionary to look up what "chanty" means, but it sounds bad, and I'm sure I don't live in a town like that, with my 400 m2 of house and 2800 m2 of lake-side garden.

But I've taken a guided tour of the part of Copenhagen mentioned in the OP (Christiania). It has a very mixed status. Some houses are really junk yards inhabited by narcomaniac hippies, as you would expect, while others are very exclusive villas made by the artistic architect who lives in it. While the area was created by ultra-leftist hippies, some of the inhabitants today are more like neo-liberals (European term for the right-wing anarchists who want to live their own life with no government involvment whatsoever). The funny thing is that you pay the same rent for every apartment, no matter if it's a thrashy 5 m2 trailer or an exclusive architect-created villa with several floors. The Danish police has recently made several hits to stop the open drug market in one of the streets there.

Last edited by Chemical Ollie on 23-07-2005 at 03:00

	23-07-2005 03:06									#44
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Long time no se CO - gues the last time was our little local storm

You are quite right - cristiania has nothing to do with the general concept of shantytowns. Actually, inhabitants of shantytowns around the world sould consider cristiania as pure luxury. To be true, it is utterly rediciosly to claim that christiania is a shantytown.

	23-07-2005 04:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch I've seen shanty towns only in the real backwoods and rural areas of the U.S., like in central Wyoming and the mountains of Nevada.

When I visited the US a few years ago, we drove through southern Montana. It was rather scary to see how people there actually lived. To quote a coworker: "I thought they only had stuff like this in movies".

	23-07-2005 04:15									#46
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quote: cristiania has nothing to do with the general concept of shantytowns

Perhaps I should have put that paragraph at the end. While Christiana may not have anything to do with the general concept of shantytowns, but it is germane with regard to redevelopment.

	23-07-2005 04:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Perhaps I should have put that paragraph at the end. While Christiana may not have anything to do with the general concept of shantytowns, but it is germane with regard to redevelopment.

Redevelopment - my a** If those areas was on free market they would go for millions.

	23-07-2005 04:39									#48
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Perhaps I don't have a clear idea of what Christiana is. Why would these places go for millions?

	23-07-2005 04:46									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If there are problems with the housing market, then the solution is to fix the market.

Shantytowns are the result of a market economy, just like famine, homelessness, and mass death by easily curable disease. The problem is that a normally run market does not have a use for everyone who exists, and these people must find other means to feed and house themselves. Only government interference, i.e. housing subsidies or government housing can solve the shanty-homeless problem. At best, all the market can do is hand out a smattering of charity.

	23-07-2005 04:46									#50
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AFAIU, it's a place full of marginals and druggies, which means it will soon be invaded (if it hadn't been the case already) by artsy types who'll make the prices go through the roof

	23-07-2005 04:51									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Perhaps I don't have a clear idea of what Christiana is. Why would these places go for millions?

Perhaps the words "Architect Villa in the Centre of a major city" would give you a clue?

	23-07-2005 05:09									#52
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Why don't you just stop trying to be cute and describe the place more?

	23-07-2005 05:33									#53
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It's a former military barracks, abandoned in the late 1960's, which was "occupied" by, get this, "shanty town-stormers" in 1970 and - unlawfully - set up as a place for marginalized people who wanted to live free from government regulations and, well, free.. Since they didn't pay anything for neither heat, electricity, water etc. (willingly supplied on a continuous basis by the government), it attracted quite a lot of people who also relished in the cannabis culture which seems to have always been one of the supprting pillars of this alternative community.

The water/heat/power issue has since been resolved, and the inhabitants have payed for these services for years now.

But after a while, other people than the so-called marginalized ones started to get attracted to the area. It's very centrally located in Copenhagen overlooking the water surrounding two sides of it, and relatively secluded from the rest of the city. But the most important thing is that building regulations aren't enforced (until recently, nothing was enforced / this changed when police finally cracked down on the drug trade).

The area is actually officially preserved, which normally means no alterations or new constructions, but this isn't enforced either. So you have a situation where you can just go there, put up a nice millionaire villa, without having to worry about preservation or regulations - or property taxes for that matter..

Let's just say it has started to attract a different kind of clients than your average doped out hippie.

For some time now, the government and spokespersons for Christiania have held talks about either making the place operate under lawful conditions as the rest of society, allowing enforcement by police and other authorities (which has been the real problem all along) - or evicting people for good.

Now this is hardly the first time such attempts have been made by the government (must be the 20th time in 35 years), but the nice thing is, we now have a government who actually means business, and which has a record of following through on its policies as communicated to the voters.

Whoa, can't believe I typed all that on the subject of Christiania, must be turning into some kind of goddamned softie. Tear it down already!

	23-07-2005 05:36									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why don't you just stop trying to be cute and describe the place more?

OK, Ill try - some commie leftist scums may try to give you another imprerssion.

Some years ago several miltary installations got obsolete people scurried into this void.

This military area was almost in the center of the city of copenhagen.

Now these sites is probablly some of the most valuable parts of the city if they were for sale.

	23-07-2005 05:45									#55
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I don't understand why the government have to come up with a plan to make this place follow its laws and so on. After all it's right there in the country, not some seperate geo-political entity.

	23-07-2005 05:51									#56
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As I said, enforcement of regulations is the problem. Inhabitants are very protective, to put it nicely, of "their" property. Many a policeman has had to face early retirement or severe traumatization over the years from attempting to enforce the law in Christiania.

	23-07-2005 06:16									#57
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Trouble is that thay have be there so long.


Oh, just fogret it if you think it is's some poor bastards that just want a better life - all of the popolation has a decent if not abusive income.

	23-07-2005 06:59									#58
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Shantytowns exist to fill the wide gap between sleeping under a bridge and legitimate housing. If they were located out in the country rather than in a city, they might be quaint rural villages as opposed to slums. Often, the residents are from said rural villages.

Therefore, to get rid of shantytowns the rural standard of living needs improving. Otherwise, the "those who can't afford a minimum standard of living shouldn't live" attitude only perpetuates the existing conditions.

	23-07-2005 07:39									#59
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DanS: You're losing sight of who's doing shantytown demolition in this case. It's Mugabe and the way he's doing it is going after ONLY shantytowns in areas where the opposition did well in the election. He hopes to drive the urban poor (two tend to be relatively anti-government) into rural areas where his political machine is powerful enough to keep them in line. It's 100% politics and it sure as hell won't help any of the people who're getting their hiomes destroyed and I'm surprised that you don't realize that.

	23-07-2005 08:45									#60
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Public housing works to get rid of shanties. DanS, like Spiffor said, you assume the market is the only solution, and this promotes an unhealthy attitude since there are so many places where a totally free market just can't provide for the needs of all people.