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Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:37
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personally i can't see the attraction of those impressionist paintings which many place such a value on. art is subjective.
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Jazz can be taught. It has techniques. It even has some soft edged rules. Its studied and used by people of all ages and has been expanded and devloped further since its inception. Sounds like a technology to me.
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This is a slippery terrain. 
Art is subjective… Or isn’t?
Jazz has been expanded and developed and so, and there are techniques that you have to learn to play Jazz (or rock, or classic music). This is necessary, but not sufficient. To write a song like Round Midnight you’ll need a little bit of the same quality you needed to build the Pyramids or, say, elaborate the Constitution of United States of America. Can’t you see?
Art is Civilization!!!
In Jazz case, Tin Pan Alley, or the Blue Note Record company could be Wonders, in the same sense of JS Bach Cathedral. Just as an example. 
Btw, Guernica, the impressive (though not impressionist  ) Picasso’s masterpiece, IS a World Wonder, no matter what you say.
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pyramids had a dramatic effect and was known all around. not just by a buncha . . . chemically enhanced. . . music fans who liked to play in the mud.
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Talking about dramatic effects… 
Well, those hippies had a dramatic effect on the world culture, and they are known all around.  … And still having effects, although not so dramatic nowadays...
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the statue of liberty stood for a major philisophy, and was the first thing many immigrants saw of america as they sailed into the harbor. it was a gift between two allied and friendly nations.
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Well, well… The Statue of Liberty is a French Wonder, we know that. They gave it to Americans… But allied and friendly nations???
Sorry, I just couldn’t resist.
I know you’re talking about what this statue represents, and I agree. Miss Liberty deserves a place in any World Wonders list.
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if they start including every mud hut university some civilization built before they fell into obscurity they might as well change the description to:
"The 999 slightly more impressive than your tree house thingamjigs of the world"
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??? 
I really don't want to include "every mud hut university... etc", but we should expand our horizons. Don’t you think?
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Kc7mxo
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Kansas City, Kansas
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aro
This is a slippery terrain.
Art is subjective… Or isn’t?
Jazz has been expanded and developed and so, and there are techniques that you have to learn to play Jazz (or rock, or classic music). This is necessary, but not sufficient. To write a song like Round Midnight you’ll need a little bit of the same quality you needed to build the Pyramids or, say, elaborate the Constitution of United States of America. Can’t you see?
Art is Civilization!!!
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Art is absolutly subjective in your enjoyment of it. But the techniques used in impressionist paintings can be considred, in my opinion, a teachable technique, which makes it a technology. If you want to consider a single song a wonder, or a single painting a wonder, you might have an argument. but it would have to be a universally recognized item that had a dramatic effect on world civilization, because otherwise, its just a painting which a buncha stuffy high class people make a big deal over. . . 
quote:
In Jazz case, Tin Pan Alley, or the Blue Note Record company could be Wonders, in the same sense of JS Bach Cathedral. Just as an example.
Btw, Guernica, the impressive (though not impressionist ) Picasso’s masterpiece, IS a World Wonder, no matter what you say.
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http://college-de-vevey.vd.ch/auteu...ernica-init.jpg
i just do NOT see why people make a big deal over this stuff. its like that poem jabberwocky, that is essentially gibberish. some people like it, but others think its just gibberish. to each his own.
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Talking about dramatic effects…
Well, those hippies had a dramatic effect on the world culture, and they are known all around. … And still having effects, although not so dramatic nowadays...
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allright, we'll give it a negative to technolgoical advancment and industrial output. Hows that? 
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Well, well… The Statue of Liberty is a French Wonder, we know that. They gave it to Americans… But allied and friendly nations???
Sorry, I just couldn’t resist.
I know you’re talking about what this statue represents, and I agree. Miss Liberty deserves a place in any World Wonders list.
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the french built a big statue. america made it into a representation of a philosophy of acceptance and the melting pot of cultural assimiliation.
and the french and the US used to be damn good buddies. Its only recently that our philosphies diverged. they saved us in a couple wars, we saved them in a couple. . . the US probably wouldn't be a free country if not for France's assistance. But we don't agree about international policy anymore.
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Yarco_TW
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quote:
Originally posted by Aro
I really don't want to include "every mud hut university... etc", but we should expand our horizons. Don’t you think? |
The conversation here makes some good points.
Point # 1 is that some great feats were usually repeated later on even grander scales (Hoover Dam -> Iguasu Dam -> Three Gorges Dam). This raises the question which of these deserves the name of a wonder.
My answer is that the first copy is a wonder, as it is the one which influences the mind, and has global effect. Copies do not deserve being called wonders, they are just copies in respective places.
Point # 2 is that some great feats were done in different countries simultaneously (Pyramids were built in Mesoamerica, great libraries were not limited to Alexandria, religious wonders equivalent to Oracle, Sistine chapel and Bach's cathedral were built all over the world). For this reason I somewhat dislike current "mainstream" approach to wonders, in which the non-European civs have extremely few wonders in the list.
IMHO, to qualify fo a wonder the feat must
1) be first among such feats
2) have significant impact on civilization, which built it.
3) exist for significant period of time.
By these criteria we have some nice wonders, which are so far excluded:
1) Great Canal of China (Construction)
2) Great Inca Road (Engineering)
Also, religious wonders can have some regonal flavour. I really do not understand why Oracle is a greater wonder compared to Pyramid of the Sun (Teotihuacan), or how Sistine Chapel is more important then temples of Angkor, Borobodur, numerous wonder churches of India, stupas of Burma, ... The list can be continued.
I also think, that we deserve to have at least one Indian wonder, since that civ produced so many of them in reality.
I'd be glad to have wonders of non-european civs to exist in the game as well.
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Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kc7mxo
quote:
Originally posted by Aro
This is a slippery terrain.
Art is subjective… Or isn’t?
Jazz has been expanded and developed and so, and there are techniques that you have to learn to play Jazz (or rock, or classic music). This is necessary, but not sufficient. To write a song like Round Midnight you’ll need a little bit of the same quality you needed to build the Pyramids or, say, elaborate the Constitution of United States of America. Can’t you see?
Art is Civilization!!! |
Art is absolutly subjective in your enjoyment of it. But the techniques used in impressionist paintings can be considred, in my opinion, a teachable technique, which makes it a technology.
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Do you mean… ?
Tech = Musical theory
Wonder = JSB Cathedral
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If you want to consider a single song a wonder, or a single painting a wonder, you might have an argument. but it would have to be a universally recognized item that had a dramatic effect on world civilization, because otherwise, its just a painting which a buncha stuffy high class people make a big deal over. . .
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The difference between a single painting and the Pyramids is the number of slaves involved.
It's not your fault. Someday you’ll see why, I'm sure.
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its like that poem jabberwocky, that is essentially gibberish. some people like it, but others think its just gibberish. to each his own.
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Oh… Lewis Carroll…
Jabberwocky
Well, some people think the Pyramids are just a bunch of bricks. I’m serious. 
quote:
quote:
Well, those hippies had a dramatic effect on the world culture, and they are known all around.
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allright, we'll give it a negative to technolgoical advancment and industrial output. Hows that?
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But you can research “hippie” techs to keep your people happy, like “Free Love”... or “Prozac”
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the french built a big statue. america made it into a representation of a philosophy of acceptance and the melting pot of cultural assimiliation.
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As I said.
IMHO, you “just do NOT see why people make a big deal over this stuff”. Art (and other “abstractions”) has no role in "your" Civilization unless to keep your citizens happy…  
Unfortunately, my english is very bad, and it's very difficult to me find the words and put them in the correct sintaxis...(not arguments, I have tons! ) to have a good discussion. Sorry by that.
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Kc7mxo
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Kansas City, Kansas
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aro
Do you mean… ?
Tech = Musical theory
Wonder = JSB Cathedral
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yeah. basically, the concept isn't the wonder, its what you DO with it.
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The difference between a single painting and the Pyramids is the number of slaves involved.
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hmm, painters are sorta similiar to slaves. . . they're ussually barely fed, smell bad, miserable. . . . maybe a painting could be a wonder. of course the problem with that is its not restriscted to a single locale, anytime there's a war it'd be getting hauled around. or some bored billionire would snatch it and put it back without anyone noticing. . .
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It's not your fault. Someday you’ll see why, I'm sure.
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nah, my tastes are pretty well matured. they ain't gunna change.
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Well, some people think the Pyramids are just a bunch of bricks. I’m serious.
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find a single painting that has had a similair number of tourists from all over the world come gawk at it as the pyramids and i'll let you call it a wonder.
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But you can research “hippie” techs to keep your people happy, like “Free Love”... or “Prozac”
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ok, so, -1 research, -1 industrial output, +1 happy citizns and +1 population growth.
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Unfortunately, my english is very bad, and it's very difficult to me find the words and put them in the correct sintaxis...(not arguments, I have tons! ) to have a good discussion. Sorry by that. |
no worries. . . .although if you want to talk penguin i'd be willing to give it a go. its the national language of antartica, right?
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Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kc7mxo
quote:
Originally posted by Aro
Do you mean… ?
Tech = Musical theory
Wonder = JSB Cathedral |
yeah. basically, the concept isn't the wonder, its what you DO with it.
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What I said in this thread:
quote:
originally posted by Aro
… Jazz (this one is a genuine American wonder: The Blue Note Record Company!)
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I don’t know if I made it clear, but the wonder I was referring is the Blue Note, not the Jazz. Jazz is the main reason that make me love your country, even hating it! (just kidding! )
More:
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Wow! Being a musician I have to disagree. Jazz isn’t a tech. Of course, you have technologies as prerequisites, but Jazz definitely isn’t a technique.
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As I said, Jazz isn’t a tech. It’s a huge musical genre, with a lot of associated techniques.
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quote:
The difference between a single painting and the Pyramids is the number of slaves involved.
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hmm, painters are sorta similiar to slaves. . . they're ussually barely fed, smell bad, miserable. . . . maybe a painting could be a wonder. of course the problem with that is its not restriscted to a single locale, anytime there's a war it'd be getting hauled around. or some bored billionire would snatch it and put it back without anyone noticing. . .
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Velásquez, Rubens, Picasso, Leonardo, Matisse… They weren’t miserable at all.
Well, Michelangelo did smell bad, as said by some people… 
I know you are already aware of that, but many painters had big studios with a lot of “assistants”, underpaid, barely fed and smelling bad.
Btw, Paintings (as Architecture) can be destroyed in wars, and frequently are. As any other Wonder…
But you’ve missed the point. The original sparkle, the initial inspiration, were the same, no matter if an Architect, a Painter or an Astronomer is the conductor of the project… And their methods were very similar, after all!
A bored Billionaire, a bored King or a bored Pharaoh can spend a lot of money with Paintings, Pyramids and Buildings. Most of the World Wonders are connected to powerful men or women.
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It's not your fault. Someday you’ll see why, I'm sure.
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nah, my tastes are pretty well matured. they ain't gunna change.
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It’s up to you.
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find a single painting that has had a similair number of tourists from all over the world come gawk at it as the pyramids and i'll let you call it a wonder.
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I don’t have the stats in my hands, but…
Do you need a single painting “that has had a similar number of tourists from all over the world coming gawk…?”
What about “Mona Lisa”?
Btw, it’s not one of my favorite paintings. IMHO, Leonardo was a great artist, but not a true “Great Master” as Velazquez, Michelangelo, Rubens, Rembrandt…
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quote:
But you can research “hippie” techs to keep your people happy, like “Free Love”... or “Prozac”
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ok, so, -1 research, -1 industrial output, +1 happy citizns and +1 population growth.
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We have a deal.
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no worries. . . .although if you want to talk penguin i'd be willing to give it a go. its the national language of antartica, right? |
We talk Portuguese in Antarctica.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sn00py
That reminds me, if Leonardo has a Workshop, how come Einstien doesn't have one? 
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Because Leonardo was a tinkerer and inventor, as well as being a part time metaphysician and philosopher, painter and sculptor.
Schemes for war machines, helicopters, diverting rivers, creating a canal for Florence, parachutes, scissors, and so on.
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patcon
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Originally posted by Sn00py
Not quite. America generally funded it and assisted, (Only America could afford $3 billion and it had a nice large desert for practice); but the main scientists came from elsewhere. |
Does that mean that the Hebrews, not the Egyptians, built the pyramids? After all the Egyptians may have funded and "assisted", but Hebrew slaves built it. Yes, I know that some historians believe that there weren't that many slaves involved and that the building was by unemployed Egyptians in an ancient version of the WPA projects of the Great Depression.
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That reminds me, if Leonardo has a Workshop, how come Einstien doesn't have one? |
Einstein didn't really invent "stuff", he invented ideas. If you want a more modern version of Leo's Workshop it would be "Menlo Park" (Edison's lab), but we can't have that because it's American!
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Yarco, I agree on the Inca Road, that is an impressive feat, even by todays standards. |
I concur. There should be a "road" wonder which could increase road travel rate.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by patcon
I concur. There should be a "road" wonder which could increase road travel rate. |
Two possible road wonders: 'The Silk Road' or the Achaemenid or Sassanid (or Persian) Royal road, with its accompanying postal and pony express system.
Why it even bequeathed its motto to the United States' postal service...
Herodotus said of it:
quote:
He describes the pirradaziš -for which he uses another name- in very laudatory words:
" There is nothing mortal which accomplishes a journey with more speed than these messengers, so skillfully has this been invented by the Persians. For they say that according to the number of days of which the entire journey consists, so many horses and men are set at intervals, each man and horse appointed for a day's journey.
Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor darkness of night prevents them from accomplishing the task proposed to them with the very utmost speed.
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http://www.iranchamber.com/history/.../royal_road.php
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One of the most significant achievements of the Achaemenid administration was the establishment of the Royal Road that connected Susa to Sardis. This road, at the beginning used exclusively by the royal messengers (Barid; see below), eventually developed into the main communication nerve of the empire. Major trade routes were connected to the Royal Road and it might have extended eastwards from Susa as well, although no Greek accounts confirm such suspicion. The Achaemenid Royal Road was clearly a sign of the administration’s awareness of the need for quick communication routes and the importance of road-making, a trait continued by most subsequent rulers. It can also be credited at the first clear forerunner of the famous Via Appia of the Roman Empire that formed the major road system of that empire.
An immediate use of the Royal Road was made by the members of the Barid system. Barid was the name of the Achaemenid postal system established by Darius I in order to facilitate the communication between the central and the satrapal governments. All satrapies and local governments had the duty of providing fresh horses and amenities for the Barid messengers. Satraps and King’s Eyes sent regular reports of the state of their satrapies to the Imperial Court in Persepolis and Susa, where detailed records of the empire were kept. Sadly, with Alexander’s burning of the Persepolis Treasury and pillage of the Susa Treasury, none of these records survived to our time and we can only speak of their existence based on various archaeological findings and the records of Greek historians.
Although the Barid was used for the purpose of imperial communication, it use later became less exclusive and included personal and business communications. Barid messengers became the bearers of information much sought after around the empire, including price information for various tradable goods. In this way, Barid played a role similar to modern postal system and is indeed considered as a forerunner of later Iranian communication and postal systems. The name Barid is used up to the modern times in various Arab countries as the original term for the Post.
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http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/pub...icle_7579.shtml
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kc7mxo
If you want to consider a single song a wonder, or a single painting a wonder, you might have an argument. but it would have to be a universally recognized item that had a dramatic effect on world civilization, because otherwise, its just a painting which a buncha stuffy high class people make a big deal over. . . |
Depends. For Western civilzation, perspective and oil painting were both fairly important in shaping how we see ourselves, and the environment around us.
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perspective (Lat. perspicere, "to see through, see clearly")
The method of representing three-dimensional objects on a flat surface. Perspective gives a picture a sense of depth. The most important form of perspective in the Renaissance was linear perspective (first formulated by the architect Brunelleschi in the early 15th century), in which the real or suggested lines of objects converge on a vanishing point on the horizon, often in the middle of the composition (centralized perspective). The first artist to make a systematic use of linear perspective was Masaccio, and its principles were set out by the architect Alberti in a book published in 1436. The use of linear perspective had a profound effect on the development of Western art and remained unchallenged until the 20th century.
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And paintings such as Holbein's 'The Ambassadors' are important not only for their technique, but also for what they record of the times the artist was living in.
Jan Van Eyck's 'Arnolfini Marriage' rocked the world too...
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05-08-2005 07:21
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