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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Yeah can't trust national as far as you can throw them.
Na they're only wiping the interest gathered on the loan, You'll still have the base loan to pay of yourself but it won't gather any more interest, effective from 1st April next year. Also, should mention that its only if you're living in NZ. Quite a good plan to stop the brain drain in a way, possibly the best the government could possibly do.
NZCEA, is the New Zealand Certificate of Educational Achievement, I think its stands for, its the thing thats replaced School C, Sixth form Cert and Bursary but its still going through teething problems and National are trying to cash that check by saying they'd scrap it. There was a big thing in the papers near the beginning of this year about it.
Elections to be held on September the 17 I think. Government's only going into recess tomorrow. Labour has yet to really start they're campaign trail.
Yeah you're spot on with the Maori Party, kneejerk reactionary party from the foreshore/seabed thing. They'll never gain much mainstream support, they're to extreme in their views, but they're doing quite well over Labour in the Maori roll.
Yeah, Anderton just right royally pissed me off with his whole drug stance, them and United Future. They don't coincide well with my views on the substances. They have worked well together in coalition, they don't really block Labour from doing their thing whereas the Greens could be a pain in the ass. I'd still prefer the Greens though.
I can't really see the National party from remaining around as a major party for too many more elections, mainly if they lose this one. They can't seem to find a leader that can hold them together and keep them sailing in a clear direction. They don't seem to have the cohesion and well the up-to-date look that Labour seems to have. Maybe I'm incredibly biased on the issue (Labour does rock afterall) but I wouldn't be surprised if NZ First is one day the main right wing party over here.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Also this might keep some Yanks interested, very much doubt it but hey.
Labour has been trying to label the National party as a Bush suck up party. First there was the nuclear issue, which was whether we should be nuclear free anymore or not - recently popped up again with Labour accusing National of asking some US Senators I think to maybe get a think tank together to help get us nuclear free - and now they've been accussed of being funded by Americans. Of course National denies.
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Caligastia
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Agathon -
You, like many Kiwis, are totally ignorant of what the Treaty of Waitangi actually says.
Here is an English translation (made in 1865) of the Maori version of the treaty.
quote:
Victoria, Queen of England, in her gracious remembrance of the chiefs of the tribes of New Zealand and through her desires to preserve them their chieftainship and their land and to preserve peace and quietness to them, has thought it right to send them a gentleman to be their representative to the Queen's Government. Now, because there are numbers of people living in this land, and more will be coming. The Queen wishes to appoint a Government that there may be no cause for strife between the natives and the Pakeha, who are now without law. It has now pleased the Queen to appoint me William Hobson, a Captain in the Royal Navy, Govenor of all parts of New Zealand, which shall be ceded now and at a further period to the Queen. She offers to the Chiefs of the Assembly of the tribes of New Zealand and to the other chiefs the following laws:-
1. The Chiefs of (i.e. constituting) the Assembly, and all the Chiefs who are absent from the Assembly, shall cede to the Queen of England for ever the Government of their lands.
2. The Queen of England acknowledges and guarantees to the chiefs, the tribes, and all the people of New Zealand, the entire supremacy of their lands, of their settlements and all of their personal property. But the Chiefs of the Assembly, and all other chiefs, make over to the Queen the purchasing of such lands, which the man who possesses the land is willing to sell, according to prices agreed upon by him, and the purchaser appointed by the Queen to purchase for her.
3. In return for their acknowledging the Government of the Queen, the Queen of England will protect all the natives of New Zealand, and will allow them the same right as the people of England.
Signed, William Hobson
Consul, and Lieutenant-Governor.
We the chiefs of this Assembly of the tribes of New Zealand, now assembled at Waitangi perceiving the meaning of these words, take and consent to them all. Therefore we sign our name and our marks.
This is done at Waitangi, on the sixth day of February, in the one thousand eight hundred and fortieth year of Our Lord.
Text from J Noble Coleman, A Memoir of the Rev. Richard Davis, London 1865 pp. 455-56
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Not much in there about forests and fisheries being reserved exclusively for Maori...that sort of thing was only recently introduced - in 1975 the Treaty of Waitangi Act wrote out all non-maori. This was a radical departure from the agreed, accepted meaning and wording of the previous 135-years, in which the Maori text had always been "back translated" to state: "and all the people of New Zealand".
After the original treaty was signed, Governor Hobson and the chiefs shook hands with the words "He iwi tahi tatou" – We are now one people.
You suck so hard dude.
Last edited by Caligastia on 04-08-2005 at 04:44
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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How about instead of posting something translated in 1865 you could of always posted the legit version the government itself uses aye.
http://www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz...d0b1f1cf20e90f6
quote:
Preamble
HER MAJESTY VICTORIA Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland regarding with Her Royal Favour the Native Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and anxious to protect their just Rights and Property and to secure to them the enjoyment of Peace and Good Order has deemed it necessary in consequence of the great number of Her Majesty's Subjects who have already settled in New Zealand and the rapid extension of Emigration both from Europe and Australia which is still in progress to constitute and appoint a functionary properly authorised to treat with the Aborigines of New Zealand for the recognition of Her Majesty's Sovereign authority over the whole or any part of those islands - Her Majesty therefore being desirous to establish a settled form of Civil Government with a view to avert the evil consequences which must result from the absence of the necessary Laws and Institutions alike to the native population and to Her subjects has been graciously pleased to empower and to authorise me William Hobson a Captain in Her Majesty's Royal Navy Consul and Lieutenant-Governor of such parts of New Zealand as may be or hereafter shall be ceded to her Majesty to invite the confederated and independent Chiefs of New Zealand to concur in the following Articles and Conditions.
Article the First
The Chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand and the separate and independent Chiefs who have not become members of the Confederation cede to Her Majesty the Queen of England absolutely and without reservation all the rights and powers of Sovereignty which the said Confederation or Individual Chiefs respectively exercise or possess, or may be supposed to exercise or to possess over their respective Territories as the sole sovereigns thereof.
Article the Second
Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and to the respective families and individuals thereof the full exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession; but the Chiefs of the United Tribes and the individual Chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of Preemption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective Proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf.
Article the Third
In consideration thereof Her Majesty the Queen of England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her royal protection and imparts to them all the Rights and Privileges of British Subjects.
Now therefore We the Chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand being assembled in Congress at Victoria in Waitangi and We the Separate and Independent Chiefs of New Zealand claiming authority over the Tribes and Territories which are specified after our respective names, having been made fully to understand the Provisions of the foregoing Treaty, accept and enter into the same in the full spirit and meaning thereof in witness of which we have attached our signatures or marks at the places and the dates respectively specified.Done at Waitangi this Sixth day of February in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and forty. |
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Ok the issues have come up over the differences between meaning in the Maori translation and the English translation.
For example the issue with the first article is that the Maori thought (according to their translation) that they were guaranteed soveignty over their own sh*t whilst the queen would be over all the Brits. The second guarantees the Maori everything that belonged to them unless they sold it to the Queen first, beause the treaty gave the queen the right of pre-emption in buying the land. The problem here is that in the land wars alot of Maori land was forceably taken because they were classified as rebels. Thats where alot of the dispute is. Another problem is that the Maori didn't think of property in the way that the poms thought of property. To the poms property was I own this acreage from here to here to here to here, whereas the Maori's were all like this land is mine from this river to this rock around about hereish and yeah thats the badass tribe next door somewhere that direction. Alot of the land poms just took because it wasn't actually being used. The third article well is pretty damn straight forward.
I'd just like to point out that "the agreed 135 year" bullcrap is only because it wasn't till the 70s that they actually started to notice the Maori, before that the government treated NZ like it was all pakehas and slightly darker pakehas.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Ok just read that Labours next policy is to have a 2008 deadline for lodging historical treaty settlements. They haven't set a date for when they are to be settled but has mentioned within 10-15 yrs.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106...00a6160,00.html
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Flip McWho
Ok the issues have come up over the differences between meaning in the Maori translation and the English translation.
For example the issue with the first article is that the Maori thought (according to their translation) that they were guaranteed soveignty over their own sh*t whilst the queen would be over all the Brits. |
Nope. They knew perfectly well that they were signing over their sovereignty to the crown. That is what the Maori version plainly states. Here's a more recent translation if you like:
quote:
Translated From the Original Maori by, Mr. T. E. Young,
Native Department
Victoria, Queen of England, in her kind thoughtfulness to the Chiefs and Hapus of New Zealand, and her desire to preserve to them their chieftainship and their land, and that peace may always be kept with them and quietness, she has thought it a right thing that a Chief should be sent here as a negotiator with the Maoris of New Zealand - that the Maoris of New Zealand may consent to the Government of the Queen of all parts of this land and the islands, because there are many people of her tribe that have settled on this land and are coming hither.
Now the Queen is desirous to establish the Government, that evil may not come to the Maoris and the Europeans who are living without law.
Now the Queen has been pleased to send me, William Hobson, a Captain in the Royal Navy, to be Governor to all the places of New Zealand which may be given up now or hereafter to the Queen; an he give forth to the Chiefs of the Assembly of the Hapus of New Zealand and other Chiefs the laws spoken here.
The First
The Chiefs of the Assembly, and all Chiefs also who have not joined the Assembly, give up entirely to the Queen of England for ever all the Government of their lands.
The Second
The Queen of England arranges and agrees to give to the Chiefs, the Hapus and all the people of New Zealand, the full chieftainship of their lands, their settlements and their property. But the Chiefs of the Assembly, and all the other Chiefs, gives to the Queen the purchase of those pieces of land which the proprietors may wish, for such payment as may be agreed upon by them and the purchaser who is appointed by the Queen to be her purchaser.
The Third
This is an arrangement for the consent to the Government of the Queen. The Queen of England will protect all the Maoris of New Zealand. All the rights will be given to them the same as her doings to the people of England.
William Hobson
Consul and Lieutenant Governor
Now, we the Chiefs of the Assembly of the Hapus of New Zealand, now assembled at Waitangi. We also, the Chiefs of New Zealand, see the meaning of these words: they are taken and consented to altogether by us. Therefore are affixed our names and marks.
This done at Waitangi, on the sixth day of February, in the year one thousand eight hundred and forty, of Our Lord.
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These translations are backed up by the final English draft of the treaty before it was translated into Maori, which was lost until 1989 - also known as the Littlewood Treaty document. Here:
quote:
Her Majesty Victoria, Queen of England in Her gracious consideration of the chiefs and people of New Zealand, and her desire to preserve to them their land and to maintain peace and order amongst them, has been pleased to appoint an officer to treat with them for the cession of the Sovreignty of their country and of the islands adjacent, to the Queen. Seeing that many of Her Majesty's subjects have already settled in the country and are constantly arriving, and it is desirable for their protection as well as the protection of the natives, to establish a government amongst them. Her Majesty has accordingly been pleased to appoint Mr. William Hobson, a captain in the Royal Navy to be Governor of such parts of New Zealand as may now or hereafter be ceded to Her Majesty and proposes to the chiefs of the Confederation of United Tribes of New Zealand and the other chiefs to agree to the following articles.
Article first
The chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes and the other chiefs who have not joined the confederation, cede to the Queen of England for ever the entire Sovreignty of their country.
Article second
The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and the tribes and to all the people of New Zealand, the possession of their lands, dwellings and all their property. But the chiefs of the Confederation of United Tribes and the other chiefs grant to the Queen, the exclusive rights of purchasing such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to sell at such prices as may be agreed upon between them and the person appointed by the Queen to purchase from them.
Article third
In return for the cession of their Sovreignty to the Queen, the people of New Zealand shall be protected by the Queen of England and the rights and privileges of British subjects will be granted to them. Signed, William Hobson Consul and Lieut. Governor.
Now we the chiefs of the Confederation of United Tribes of New Zealand assembled at Waitangi, and we the other tribes of New Zealand, having understood the meaning of these articles, accept them and agree to them all. In witness whereof our names or marks are affixed. Done at Waitangi on the 4th of February, 1840.
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http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/...oodTreaty1.html
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Non-Maori NZer's pretty much
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
wtf does "pakehas" mean? |
Honkeys.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Also the dispute is over the meanings of the words. The argument goes that the Maori had no equivalent word for soveriegnty in the Maori language and that the word the poms did use didn't mean the exact same. They should used the kawangatanga which means chieftainship is one line of thought. The Maori didn't think they were giving up their chieftainship rights at all and thats where some of the issue is.
The translations don't really mean crap because isn't it according to the UN that the native peoples language is used.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Actually I do really agree with you. The whole Maori land grabbing thing has been going on for decades now and well whats done has been done. Time to get over it and move on. I just don't like the people who like to make this the main focus of everything. Just as bad as the Maori's that are doing it.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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Meh to me name calling means nothing at all, Its not like theres much truth in it anyways, usually only shows the lack of argument on the name callers side.
It's actually kinda quite interesting really. Generally the Maori doesn't really feature too much unless you live above about Taupo area, otherwise nobody really cares about them. But thats due to their population dispersal, more Maori's live in the upper north Island than anywhere else It would be good getting rid of the maori seats in parliament and maori wards and all those crap things but its not worth screwing the country up to vote for national.
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Sn00py
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From New Zealand
Aug 2001
time: 13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
the 19th century UN?
OMG who gives a flying ****? The maoris are treated as equal citizens in a first world country. From where I see it, they should be thankful for you pussies coming and shaping them up into a normal country. Considering all, They'd be living in a useless dump had not been for you, you worthless scum. |
Actually a lot of Pakehas and Maori agree with this. And they are thankful they didn't get the French or Spanish. 
And a note of history, while England was the first to find NZ, it was America that was the first to settle, they mostly did a lot of whaling, then soon after they left. *phew*
If the Maori rioters want to shake up the treaty, then they can give back their X-Box's and Playstation 2's, refridgerators, cars, jobs, schooling, houses, infact, pretty much everything they have. Mind you, a lot of these Moari rioters are not well educated, so its no wonder they are causing nonsense.
I don't think they even realise that the Maori actually have more benefits than the Pakehas in NZ. I think they get tonnes of free stuff from the government. I think free entry to University is one of them, or something like that.
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BlackCat
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The real problem is that some specialists thinks that various tribes somehow can deliver wonderful knowledge, and the sparser they are, the more wonderful this knowledge will be. It seems that these specialists think that just because something is lost, then it can't be rediscovered !
Maybe I'm just naive, but at present I cant recall something that is learned from some sparse population that couldn't have been learned otherwise.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sn00py
Actually a lot of Pakehas and Maori agree with this. And they are thankful they didn't get the French or Spanish.
And a note of history, while England was the first to find NZ, it was America that was the first to settle, they mostly did a lot of whaling, then soon after they left. *phew*
If the Maori rioters want to shake up the treaty, then they can give back their X-Box's and Playstation 2's, refridgerators, cars, jobs, schooling, houses, infact, pretty much everything they have. Mind you, a lot of these Moari rioters are not well educated, so its no wonder they are causing nonsense.
I don't think they even realise that the Maori actually have more benefits than the Pakehas in NZ. I think they get tonnes of free stuff from the government. I think free entry to University is one of them, or something like that. |
Why doesn't the government give them back the land that was unfairly taken? What makes you think that Maori people were incapable of having their own country? They certainly managed quite well adapting to the new technologies of the colonists, and they even had their own printing presses and newspapers.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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The Maori people wouldn't have had their own country till they found some other races to have a separate country against. At the time the english arrived they were very happy fighting amongst themselves. Hell even when they started up the king movement not all the tribes jumped into the bandwagon anyways.
The Maori at the time the English came were technologically inferior and woulda remained so for many many moons. The English treated them with a heck of a lot more respect that the english have treated other native peoples (the aborigines for example, hell Indians, Africans, they've virtually treated every other native peoples worse than they've treated the Maori) and even on their ladder of civilisation the English put the Maori people in the upper percentage worth of savages (from a first year pols paper). All in all you can say that the Maori have had it fairly easy going by normal English standards. Though they do have a claim to the land taken forceably in the NZ land wars.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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And your stuff is typical feel sorry for the natives balderdash. That can work both ways dude.
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Flip McWho
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New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:37
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quote:
Plenty far. If they hadn't been conquered, infected and subjugated they would have made their own country or federation. They weren't idiots you know. They managed to pwn the British Army on numerous occasions (a rare occurrence for the 19th century). |
Not too mention that thats entirely hypothetical. When the poms arrived the Maori people were mainly interested in buying muskets off them so they could wage war on their neighbouring tribes. There was no interest at all in forming a country or federation. That didn't happen till the king movement started gaining ground in the 1870s in answer to the treaty ignoring that the poms were doing. There was only so much land that was taken during the wars, the land that was sold to the poms is just land they sold, whether they sold it for one blanket or two blankets its still been sold.
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03-08-2005 14:11
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