07-08-2005 19:33									#61
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Also, many liberal churches, as well as the Black church generally, and many Jewish rabbis, were instrumental in the civil rights struggle. Also the Nation of Islam, although they are hard core conservatives.

	07-08-2005 19:36									#62
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@ che That's not really the definition of "progressive". They seem to have been fighting for the rights of "their people" first and foremost which simply coincided with a wider human rights movememnt.

	07-08-2005 19:42									#63
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The proof is in the pudding, Bereta. You can be the most reactionary thug in your ideology, but what matters at the end of the day is what you do. In any event, MLK and others like him were also strongly against the Vietnam War as well as big in the anti-poverty movement. There are plenty of left Christian churches in the world.

	07-08-2005 19:56									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder abolition of what? I guess slavery.

That's generally what it means when used in a social historical sense.

	07-08-2005 20:04									#65
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In places where slavery existed, I guess it's self explanatory. In others not (yes yes i know what happened ages ago in those other places as well)

	07-08-2005 20:24									#66
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You guys had slavery too.

The only reason you stopped was because you stopped being powerful

	07-08-2005 20:40									#67
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There was no slavery when the modern Greek state was formed though. So it's completely alien.

	07-08-2005 20:45									#68
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That's because you guys were formed at the tail end of slavery anyway.

	07-08-2005 20:48									#69
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You were too if I'm not mistaken.

	07-08-2005 21:19									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder There was no slavery when the modern Greek state was formed though. So it's completely alien.

Weren't (some of) your people slaves of the Turks before the league of heroic English poets freed you?

	07-08-2005 21:20									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder You were too if I'm not mistaken.

No, we were formed hundreds of years before that.

	07-08-2005 21:23									#72
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So the US was formed before it was liberated by the French? First time I hear it.

	07-08-2005 21:27									#73
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The colonies were.

	07-08-2005 21:28									#74
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Thank you

	07-08-2005 21:30									#75
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too contrive to ba a solid troll

	07-08-2005 21:34									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Weren't (some of) your people slaves of the Turks before the league of heroic English poets freed you?

What I'm saying is that the first constitution of the modern Greek State didn't include slavery of any form in it. Actually from what I hear it was amongst the most democratic of its era. So it's logical that the word abolition by itself wouldn't mean much to me since slavery was never a concern for the Greek state and didn't tear it up like it did the american one. And for other countries it's the same too I think. Whereas you were also subjects. However when you got freed you still had slavery. This is so clear stated it's called PH in another site.

	07-08-2005 22:08									#78
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Slavery was legally recognized in Greece under Turkish rule, but AFAIK it had little importance by the early 19th C.

	07-08-2005 22:18									#79
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As far as I know all Greeks were slaves under Ottoman rule. What do you call having your children taken away from you by force, your word never being valid compared to that of a muslim in a "court" etc? It's pretty much like the Kurds today.

	07-08-2005 22:18									#80
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Drafting and second-class citizenship?

	07-08-2005 22:21									#81
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Sounds closer to slavery. Drafting is what you do when you're 18. Not 5 years old. And it's for defending your country. Second class citizenship is when you're prejudisted againgst extra- instutitionally not when it is absolutely institutionalized. You might as well say Jews helped Hitler by providing great help in making pillows.

	07-08-2005 22:38									#82
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Boys taken as devshirme certainly were enslaved, but the practice had ended long before Greece's independence. The ordinary population were indeed 2nd class citizens, but not slaves.

	07-08-2005 23:10									#83
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Depends on your definition of slave. All songs, poems etc from the liberation era talked about liberation from slavery so I'll take their word for it.

	07-08-2005 23:17									#84
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GOD HATES THREADJACKERS!!!!!!!!!

	07-08-2005 23:33									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder Depends on your definition of slave. All songs, poems etc from the liberation era talked about liberation from slavery so I'll take their word for it.

The definitions of the Ottoman state would seem to be appropriate in context.

	07-08-2005 23:34									#86
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quote: Depends on your definition of slave. All songs, poems etc from the liberation era talked about liberation from slavery so I'll take their word for it.

Like they'd say anything different?

	07-08-2005 23:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder Depends on your definition of slave. All songs, poems etc from the liberation era talked about liberation from slavery so I'll take their word for it.

Ever hear of propaganda? Our songs and political tracts before and during our revolution talk about our slavery to the British monarch. Which isn't to say that conditions in the Empire were ideal, but they were hardly as bad as Greeks make them out to be, considering Greeks practically ran the government.

	08-08-2005 01:16									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun http://www.godhatesphelps.com/ Domain disabled? Frredom of speech is one thing, but isn't there a law or something against agitating against a defined group of people? Damn, this group is sowing the seeds of sympathy towards america in me, and I don't like it.

no laws like that in the US. However were we in a declared war their actions here would be punishable by death.

	08-08-2005 16:53									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Also, many liberal churches, as well as the Black church generally, and many Jewish rabbis, were instrumental in the civil rights struggle. Also the Nation of Islam*, although they are hard core conservatives.

*Gutter Religion

	08-08-2005 18:33									#90
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In Britain they're considering charging some of the extreme muslim clerics who spoke out in favour of the 7/7 attacks for treason. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4130454.stm)

Phelps must be happy that he doesn't live around here.