10-08-2005 15:19									#31
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I don't want to go in lenghts here and I guess you and I know both other sides of the argumentation so we would just waste words on that matter.

If you think you don't, please here just for you:
Electricity needs can be covered with various forms and as the modern Austria shows that we have managed to do so, without a nuclear plant. Some forms are more accepted among the population than others. Politicians need to have a feeling for that and if sometimes they don't, then the people can decide directly on the matter.
It's a weasel strategy to push your own agenda by putting people to decide on completed tasks. I don't necessarily want to underestimate bad intent here though, they may not have known as well.

	10-08-2005 15:32									#32
	Suffering from ads?

like what? "buying" ( which is outsourcing the damage), "Hydro" ( which is probably used to the limit already), and fossil fuels. All the rest is probably an insignificant fraction of the power demand.

	10-08-2005 16:30									#33
	Put an end to popups!

Okay so I did a little web search:

Hydro power
Here is an example of a hydro river-crossing plant: http://externe.jrc.es/Austria+Hydro.htm

quote: The power plant Greifenstein located in Lower Austia, Austria, is the eighth run-of-river plant on the river Danube. Having an installed capacity of 293 MW and a yearly mean energy generation of 1,720 GWh, Greifenstein is the second largest run-of-river plant. The construction period lasted from 1981 to 1985 and the construction costs summed about 8.1 billion ATS (about 600 million ECU). The power plant is managed by Österreichische Donaukraftwerke AG (DONAUKRAFT) or VERBUND respectively.

There is a wikipedia entry (german): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaukraftwerk

quote: nsgesamt erzeugen die Kraftwerke an der Donau jährlich 13200 GWh Strom und damit rund 20% der öffentlichen Elektrizitätsgewinnung in Österreich.

(They produce 13,200 GWh of power each year (20% of the public electricity productions in Austria) - don't ask me what that should mean, the company is only public in as much as it is a stock-corporation)

Mentioned on a windpark site (about the general situation): http://www.tauernwind.com/windenerg...rgie_oest_e.htm

quote: 70% of Austria´s electricity is produced by renewables. This seems astounding but when we take a closer look and realise that water power accounts for this, the situation is not as rosy as it seems. Hydroelectric power plants change and destroy the landscape tremendously.

	10-08-2005 16:31									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

Wind power
An example of a windpark is the Tauern wind park. On their page it says they produce about 52 GWh (anually) with 13 propellers. It's the highest (altitude) one in Europe.
I've seen an enourmous amount of wind parks in southern spain, while they are a big sight in the country, I think it has its own fascination and the land can be used for farming.

They have a nice table of the development of wind power in Europe (numbers are MWh, I guess - not taken anually):

quote: Installed Capacity in Europe, most important countries:   1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 Germany 1132 1545 2080 2874 4443 6113 8754 11994 14609 Spain 133 249 512 834 1225 2235 3337 4825 6202 Denmark 637 857 1116 1450 1761 2300 2417 2889 3110 Italy 33 71 100 180 283 427 697 788 904 Netherlands 249 299 325 363 411 446 493 693 912 UK 200 270 320 334 353 406 474 552 649 Sweden 69 105 117 150 215 231 290 345 399 Greece 28 29 29 39 82 189 272 297 375 Ireland 7 11 51 63 73 118 125 137 186 Portugal 9 20 38 60 60 100 125 195 299 Austria   3 20 30 42 77 95 140 415 France 3 10 10 19 22 66 78 148 239 Finland 6 8 12 17 38 38 39 43 51 Rest Europe   29 31 51 68 76 124 210 266 Total sum 2506 3506 4761 6464 9076 12822 17320 23308 28706

	10-08-2005 16:31									#35
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and the rest of the world:

quote: Installed Capacity, other countries:   1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 USA 1591 1582 1611 2141 2465 2495   4685 6374 India 576 820 940 1022 1062 1138 1507 1702 2110 China 44 79 146 200 261 316 400 468 568 Canada 21 22 26 83 125 137   236 317 Japan     18 40 68 135 274 414 686 Egypt     5 5 35 68       Marocco     0 0 0 54       Costa Rica     20 26 46 51       New Zealand     4 5 35 35       Australia     11 17 17 31 73 105 198 Brazil     3 17 25 20       Argentina     9 12 13 14       Iran     11 11 11 11       Rest Others 2 2 15 15 25 26   310 335 Total sum 2234 2505 2819 3594 4188 4521

	10-08-2005 16:31									#36
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Solar power

I found a nice application of solar power, where the top of a football stadium was equipped with solar cells to feed into the heating net for a towns district: http://www.managenergy.net/products/R261.htm

quote: With the construction of Austria's largest solar plant (1407 m2) at the Arnold Schwarzenegger Stadium the pilot project of feeding solar energy directly into an urban district heating net was realised. Further a distinct sign of environmental concern of the township of Graz was set. This solar plant is Europe's Premiere for solar district heating. The plant is operated and financed by a Third-Party-Financing Model. This pilot project is supported by the township of Graz, the Steirische Wirtschaftsförderung and the Kommunalkredit Austria. The plant went in operation in June 2002 and will deliver about 600 MWh solar energy in the district heating net. Comparing the CO2 Emissions, which issue by using an oil fired boiler with a total efficiency of 70 %, this means a saving of about 250 tons CO2 a year.

Exactly the type of solar power applications that we could see more in the future!

A solar plant in Austria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loser_%28mountain%29

quote: The largest solar plant of the Alps is located on the southern slope of the loser at an elevation of 1600 meters. The pure air, the usual absence of fog, and, in winter, reflection of sunlight from snow, create good conditions for obtaining electricity from sunlight in the mountains. The Loser plant was built from 1988 to 1989 and consists of 598 solar modules covering a total surface area of 263 square meters. The module's inclination of 60 degrees allows for a stable delivery of electricity throughout the year. Three generators (from the USA, Japan and Germany) produce about 30 kilowatts under optimal conditions, which enter the electrical network through a power inverter.

But why cover free space when we could build it atop of existing buildings?

	10-08-2005 16:39									#37
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fixed the formatting

Last edited by Atahualpa on 10-08-2005 at 19:42

	10-08-2005 16:46									#38
	Got spare money?

Solar and wind power is ideal for places like the greek islands or other places with lots of sun and wind.

	10-08-2005 18:10									#39
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Nuclear power

Ecologists

There is no contradiction between the two.

	10-08-2005 18:21									#40
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Safe nukes
Real world nukes
nuke waste

	10-08-2005 18:22									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit How is polluting the water and the air by burning fossil fuels better than a modern nuclear power plant?

The damage goes away a lot sooner than radiactive contamination.

	10-08-2005 18:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Nuclear power Ecologists There is no contradiction between the two.

That's right nuclear power itself is not that much of a problem (except when it ends in a supergau of course). But the toxic waste that comes with it is.

	10-08-2005 18:28									#43
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Ata,

quote: 263 square meters.

quote: about 30 kilowatts under optimal conditions

I am sorry, but that's nothing. simply nothing.

	10-08-2005 19:40									#44
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Yeah it's because solar power doesn't sound cool, but you don't want to understand where and how to use it.
Read the case study about the football stadium and see a successful application in a bigger environment.
Solar power is useful when you don't think in big factories, but in a decentralized model. One big plant somewhere will need much space and not generate much energy, but lots of small plants in urban areas (where space is already there) can signifcantly contribute to the total power output. Think in P2P nets.

In smaller environments solar power is useful as well and the same company that operates the "Loser" (edit: it's a name) plant, has installed and runs a smaller part for one of those "restaurants" in the mountains (on 1572m) that operate on 2kw.

Last edited by Atahualpa on 10-08-2005 at 23:33

	11-08-2005 00:29									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

solar power is good for a very small nieche:

-Powering outdoor devices that consume little power, like parking meters, etc.
-Heating water - This is used extensively in Israel.
-powering calculators.

	11-08-2005 00:50									#46
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A niche indeed, but what is forgotten easily is that everyone can make use of it and if employed on a greater scale, I think we should see a difference. 1+1+1+ will make a great number as well if you continue long enough.

E.g. take the power problem ridden california with its many air conditions. Solar panels on each house with air condition would greatly reduce external power consumption. This even goes hand in hand, since you need air condition most when it's a hot day and the sun is shining heavily.

Heating water with solar power is a good step in the right direction. The more applications you can find to satisfy already with solar power the better.

	11-08-2005 01:00									#47
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quote: 1+1+1+ will make a great number as well if you continue long enough.

Not relatively to overall consumption. And that's the sad truth.

	11-08-2005 02:17									#48
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You're a pessimist

	11-08-2005 02:18									#49
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Actually, I am a realistic optimist. Just shows you in how bad a shape solar power is.

	11-08-2005 04:24									#50
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a realistic optimist


when I say: 1+1+1+.. makes for a large number if it's long enough and you come and say something about relativism and that it's not going to work out... how can you still use the word optimist?

Anyway, here's what a "realistic optimist" would do:

quote: There's naivete which says, "Oh, it'll work, no problem!" There's cynicism which says, "It'll never work, why even try?" And then there's a third attitude -- call it realistic optimism -- which says, "Sure, it'll be hard and it might fail. But it might succeed. And it'll never work if we don't try, so let's give it our best shot." http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1107007317.comments.shtml

That sounds more like me though.

	11-08-2005 04:41									#51
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I think we should look into producing power by having huge hamsters (or specially trained cows) run inside huge wheels. Cows would be fed with grass, which is renewable, and the methane they produce could be captured to produce even more power...

Gotta patent this