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Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 13:32
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"way of life" slipping away

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 14:47 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Just curious - is this about globalization only in the economic sense? What about communications (internet) and cultural aspects. Critics would probably mention "cultural imperialism" and "Americanization" here. But that's all debatable as well.....

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 15:39
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A critic did mention it

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 15:50
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Thank you Aggie, Berz, and Imran, though I've already written my paper off of the other stuff. I also went back and looked at the "french workers want to be lazy" thread.

EDIT: Oh, and Aggie making sense

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 06-09-2005 at 16:01

BeBro is offline BeBro
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 06-09-2005 15:53 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
A critic did mention it


Yeah, I read your post, I meant if these aspects play a role in Kuci's school thing.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 17:22
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quote:
and what economists call free riding (like when you have to breathe polluted air so that GM can make more money – you absorb the cost of a transaction to which you did not consent).


Isnt free riding more like not paying for a service that benefits you nonetheless? Like military/police protection? I seem to remember that example from our debates. What you described sounds more like facism if taken to an extreme (see my sig) Communist countries pollute too, is that a communist failure?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 17:41
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Yes, Berz, free riding is not paying for a benefit. Agathon there is describing a negative externality, which you can say is like passing the buck, or something.

Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yes, Berz, free riding is not paying for a benefit. Agathon there is describing a negative externality, which you can say is like passing the buck, or something.

Free riding and negative externalities are basically two sides of the same coin, in both cases benefits and costs mismatch in a way that results in an inefficient economic arraignement. You can have these problems in any kind of economic system...

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 19:08 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Communist countries pollute too, is that a communist failure?


Absolutely.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 19:10 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Oh, let us know how your paper goes.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 19:15
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F

LiberalAtheist is offline LiberalAtheist
Settler

Mar 2004
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  Old Post 06-09-2005 20:30
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The problem isn't with globalization, but lawless, totally unregulated globalization (something stemming from market fundamentalism). As noble prize winning economist, and critic of globalization Joseph Stiglitz put it: Globalization is neither good or evil, it is a technology that can be used for good or evil.

Just like atomic power, or chemistry, or the internet, economic systems are just a technology. And a technology can be used or misused. In any event some good dirt on globalization can be found in Stiglitz Globalization and its Discontents. Note that globalization does do some good, it has I believe overall raised living standards substantially in the third world (just look at how South Korea has something like 28 times as much wealth as North Korea, and about four times as much wealth as china, probably because those countries are more economically isolated).

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 22:19 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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Stiglitz is probably the best (and most intelligent) critic of globalization, I serously recommend him for anyone who wants to read both sides of the argument.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
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  Old Post 06-09-2005 22:19
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What's happening to this place? No response to my racism troll? Not even a "0/10"?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
What's happening to this place? No response to my racism troll? Not even a "0/10"?
too obvious!

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 22:24
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I have to agree with the free borders issue.
Any system in which goods and capital can move freely but labor can't simply can't produce the global benefits it claims.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
too obvious!
Back in the good all days, one could start a flamewar here by saying "God shags Peter on fridays".

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 06-09-2005 22:29
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does anyone else get fed up trying to not buy stuff from china?
This is an anti-globalization arguement of sorts
not that i have anything against china in particular, but it just gets a bit of a pain sometimes trying to address any mis-balances at the consumer end. I do pay more for local produce when i can, but clothes+computers/consoles etc all seem to be from china these days

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
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  Old Post 07-09-2005 00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Bosh

Free riding and negative externalities are basically two sides of the same coin, in both cases benefits and costs mismatch in a way that results in an inefficient economic arraignement. You can have these problems in any kind of economic system...


Yep. If someone is suffering from a negative externality, chances are someone else is free riding.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


The main argument is obvious. Most prosperous societies regulate their markets to ensure that they don't produce too many undesirable goods (pollution, unsafe working environments, poverty, etc.). The enforcement mechanism is democratic: corporations would love to pollute more (since anti-pollution measures cost them money), but the voting public doesn't stand for them since they are the ones that end up on the receiving end of the pollution (so do the owners of the corporation, but the increased profits from polluting are more attractive to them - otherwise they wouldn't do it).

In other words, markets must be regulated to prevent market failures and what economists call free riding (like when you have to breathe polluted air so that GM can make more money – you absorb the cost of a transaction to which you did not consent).

Market fundamentalists oppose this because they deny that market failure exists (for the most part or at all). However, they are simply wrong – anyone can point to thousands of examples of market failures in the real world.

The solution is again obvious. Since markets are now more global than ever, corresponding global regulation is needed. The dispute is over the regulations.

Business wants the regulations to enforce contracts and provide compensation for decisions that governments make that cost businesses money. Surprisingly, there isn't really anything wrong with that - it means that people can invest with more confidence.

The problem is that business doesn't want all the other pesky regulations to which we have become accustomed: things like workplace safety, welfare safety nets, and pollution controls - the sort of regulations that cost businesses money, but benefit everyone by compelling businesses to pay the full cost of their impact on society.

(They also do not recognize that developing countries cannot support a radical market economy – most sensible people realize that many countries require a period of protectionism to build up the necessary institutions and practices that will allow a market economy to benefit their citizens.)

Without the second sort of regulations, markets would become a global menace as they would be within countries if they were not regulated.

The "anti-globalization" people are complaining because business, due to its wealth and political connections, is able to secure a regulatory framework that benefits it over the common good. They would rather that the framework for globalization was designed to benefit everyone, and not just business interests. In this respect, their case is unanswerable. The problem is that the media focuses on the extreme radical wing of the movement and this drowns out the real issue.


AGGIE PWNS!

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 18:54 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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No, he just expounded on my main points. Anyway, whom is he pwning? No one, yet, has stood up for globalism as Freidman has.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, he just expounded on my main points.
which you stole from me

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 18:55 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
which you stole from me


Well, you shouldn't have left them lying around outside where anyone could take them. I thought you threw them away.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Well, you shouldn't have left them lying around outside where anyone could take them. I thought you threw them away.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 20:09 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Too late to help Kuci's paper, but on-topic nonetheless. Odin should probably give it a read too.

http://www.counterpunch.com/roberts09052005.html

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 20:09 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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quote:
which you stole from me


collectivization

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 21:58 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Got spare money?

"Property is Theft"

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Too late to help Kuci's paper, but on-topic nonetheless. Odin should probably give it a read too.

http://www.counterpunch.com/roberts09052005.html


... that linked article called LBJ a libertarian.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:30
  Old Post 07-09-2005 23:22 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:

Economic science no longer exists in America. Its place has been taken by emotional commitments to dogmas.


I has never existed. Not in the US, not anywhere. Economic policy is driven far more by ideology than practicality and common sense.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:30
  Old Post 08-09-2005 13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Communist countries pollute too, is that a communist failure?


That's not the point.

The point is when a pollutor doesn't have to bear the full cost of cleaning it up, he has caused a negative externality - the society is now stuck with some of this cost. IOW, he's having a free ride (for not needing to pay the full cost).

However, in a communist country, such a pollutor is the society itself, with all those state owned industries and such, so there is no negative externality here.

 
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