06-09-2005 16:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Winston The Iranian thing was a mistake. I never agreed with it. Technically however, it was the Israelis who supplied the Iranians with the anti-tank weapons, and the U.S. then agreed to resupply the Israeli stock. Just to keep that side of it straight. .

Ah, so covert dealings with a country that itself kept Americans hostages and whose citizens violated diplomatic immunity is okay, as long as you do it through a third party and hope not to get found out.




And of course if you fund it through smuggling drugs into the United States and aid some terrorists while you're about it.

quote: And it wasn't done in order to court Iranian "friendship", but in the hopes of securing the release of hostages,

I think someone left you out of the loop:

quote: The Iran-contra affair was the product of two separate initiatives during the administration of President Ronald Reagan. The first was a commitment to aid the contras who were conducting a guerrilla war against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. The second was to placate “moderates” within the Iranian government in order to secure the release of American hostages held by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon and to influence Iranian foreign policy in a pro-Western direction. [...] This operation was directed by NSC staffer Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North. McFarlane and North were also the central figures in the plan to secretly ship arms to Iran despite a U.S. trade and arms embargo. In early Nov., 1986, the scandal broke when reports in Lebanese newspapers forced the Reagan administration to disclose the arms deals.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0825447.html


Honest Injuns ?

quote: In 1985, while Iran and Iraq were at war, Iran made a secret request to buy weapons from the United States. McFarlane sought Reagan's approval, in spite of the embargo against selling arms to Iran. McFarlane explained that the sale of arms would not only improve U.S. relations with Iran, but might in turn lead to improved relations with Lebanon, increasing U.S. influence in the troubled Middle East. Reagan was driven by a different obsession. He had become frustrated at his inability to secure the release of the seven American hostages being held by Iranian terrorists in Lebanon. As president, Reagan felt that "he had the duty to bring those Americans home," and he convinced himself that he was not negotiating with terrorists. While shipping arms to Iran violated the embargo, dealing with terrorists violated Reagan's campaign promise never to do so. Reagan had always been admired for his honesty. When the Lebanese newspaper "Al-Shiraa" printed an exposé on the clandestine activities in November 1986, Reagan went on television and vehemently denied that any such operation had occurred. He retracted the statement a week later, insisting that the sale of weapons had not been an arms-for-hostages deal.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan...ts/pande08.html


Israel's part:

quote: According to the Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair issued in November 1987, the sale of U.S. arms to Iran through Israel began in the summer of 1985, after receiving the approval of President Reagan. The report shows that Israel's involvement was stimulated by separate overtures in 1985 from Iranian arms merchant Manucher Ghorbanifar and National Security Council (NSC) consultant Michael Ledeen, the latter working for National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane. When Ledeen asked Prime Minister Shimon Peres for assistance, the Israeli leader agreed to sell weapons to Iran at America's behest, providing the sale had high-level U.S. approval.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...tra_Affair.html

	06-09-2005 16:36									#32
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I assure you, you don't need to lecture me on this, molly bloom.

Furthermore, I wasn't 'left out of any loop', as you so delicately put it. You brought up the Iranian arms deal separately, which is what I replied to.

	06-09-2005 16:37									#33
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The US should take the offer. Fidel makes a point of having trained personnel ready for just these sorts of situations. Cuban doctors are sent all over the world to help people.

If only more nations did as much as evil Cuba.

	06-09-2005 16:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I assure you, you don't need to lecture me on this, molly bloom..

Yes he does. You need to be tied to a chair and beaten with a wet mop until you stop saying daft tory things.

	06-09-2005 16:45									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I assure you, you don't need to lecture me on this, molly bloom. Furthermore, I wasn't 'left out of any loop', as you so delicately put it.

Hey, I'm only borrowing that phrase. Someone else used it first....


But clearly they did in fact hope to court Iranian friendship, didn't they ?


So a hostage holding, terrorist funding state can be dealt with, but an offer of humanitarian aid from Cuba must be rejected, lest the lumpen proletariat burn down the White House.

I think I understand.

	06-09-2005 18:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The US should take the offer.

They shouldn't.
How can they be sure cubans aren't there to fluoridate water, to sap and impurify all of their precious bodily fluids?

	06-09-2005 18:58									#37
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Winston, you're really a pathetic clown, get your ideologic blinders off.
Cuba has a tradition of helping in situations of disaster, and this one isn't particularily far away, and it's a disaster they're used tp, so they could offer help quickly and easily.

Really, I still remember when the Mullahs didn't want to accept US aid after the earthquake and there was a huge outcry that they rather let their people die instead of accepting US-aid.
In case of such disasters with international help needed, a nation should except the help from everyone.

	06-09-2005 19:41									#39
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There are many Winstons in the US government.

Anyway, what IS the problem with Cuba. I know the US had great "plans" for it, but, aside from being communist, whats the grudge for?

	06-09-2005 19:41									#40
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Just add the danish fez-troll to your ignore list and he loses his audience

	06-09-2005 19:58									#41
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I am amazed, truly amazed at how Castro can offer us aid after we have screwed with him and Cuba in general so much.

	06-09-2005 20:01									#42
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Well part of it is no doubt propaganda (though less "Haha, stupid America needs us" than "Look at this socialist 3rd world country being so free with it's resources"). I also think that Cuba doesn't feel anywhere near as strongly about the US as the US does about Cuba, and Cuba offers these doctors in whatever situation.

	06-09-2005 20:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Oh yeah? How would the U.S. go about maintaining an embargo in the aftermath, if they decided to suddenly disregard it to allow medical assistance in?

Bingo! Damn, that Fidel is clever.

quote: And - unrelated to the issue at hand, but since you mentioned it - there's nothing "honourable" about Fidel Castro. He's a despot who's had a very firm grip on Cuban balls for 46 years now. His regime is criminal and an affront to human rights. He's doing this to embarras the U.S., because he knows it will be turned down.

Actually, to millions in Cuba and elsewhere, he is a hero.

I think he's doing it for more reasons than you say. The first and formost is to actually help people. Second, to show that Cuba, after enduring 40 years of a crippling trade embargo by the US, is still willing to help in a crisis. Third, to show the advantages of the Cuban system in mobilizing medical aid. Fourth, as you said, if Bush somehow accepts, to undermine the economic embargo. Fifth, if Bush declines, to add to his political problems.

There was a story on the Canadian news last night with footage of Fidel speaking to several hundred Cuban doctors mobilized to go to the US if their government accepts.

	06-09-2005 20:02									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Daz There are many Winstons in the US government. Anyway, what IS the problem with Cuba. I know the US had great "plans" for it, but, aside from being communist, whats the grudge for?

For being communist.

	06-09-2005 20:04									#45
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quote: [SIZE=1] Anyway, what IS the problem with Cuba. I know the US had great "plans" for it, but, aside from being communist, whats the grudge for?

Don't you know? There are a million reds at our border, just itching to rip off your university sweater pinko. They are perched there, just waiting to unleash Al Qaeda (not the kind we fund but the bad kind), force us to abandon God, make our kids have gay marriages, kill our puppies, incoherently socialize our economy under this global warming myth and destroy our way of life!

They are after our way of life!

I mean so what if its just a tiny island with basically no support and no way to hurt us? The only good commie is a dead commie!

	06-09-2005 20:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Well part of it is no doubt propaganda

Oh come on, Castro is a politician. Part of anything a politician does is about propaganda. That should be somewhat of a controlled/background variable by now.

	06-09-2005 20:06									#47
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That still seems odd to me, i mean communism used to be the big threat, but surely Cuba's system must be seen as some anachronistic left over by now? If anything, the unwillingness to trade or deal with the regime strengthens it more in the eyes of most of the 3rd world.

	06-09-2005 20:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue That still seems odd to me, i mean communism used to be the big threat, but surely Cuba's system must be seen as some anachronistic left over by now? If anything, the unwillingness to trade or deal with the regime strengthens it more in the eyes of most of the 3rd world.

Bingo. Give this guy a degree, a diploma-something!

The fact is yeah, the only thing allowing a lot of the socialist system in place is in fact our trade barrier, ironically enough. You would think the US would have learned its lesson after china--tough guy rambo policies that alienate the country only perpetuate the isolationism, mutual hatred and accompanying nationalism/authoritarianism--allowing trade however opens the country up to new goods and ideas.

Americans however are not really the fastest learners, nor the most educated on matters of history.

	06-09-2005 20:16									#49
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I still think it's the Cuban exiles in Florida that make the decisions wrt this, they're the kind of swing voters most presidential candidates need to get in their camp.

	06-09-2005 20:22									#51
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I remember to have seen lightblue here on occasions.

	06-09-2005 20:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I remember to have seen lightblue here on occasions.

* Sava points above lightblue

	06-09-2005 20:27									#53
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Hah, hundred-nil!

Aside from that, March 2004 would be not sufficiently "new" to dance, anyway.

	06-09-2005 20:28									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Hah, hundred-nil! Aside from that, March 2004 would be not sufficiently "new" to dance, anyway.

bah, he's a sleeper DL

that's when someone creates a DL and doesn't use him for months (sometimes YEARS) just to pop in some time in the future on the OTF!

	06-09-2005 20:29									#55
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Sleeper DL?

	06-09-2005 20:31									#56
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I bet he#s from Cuba

	06-09-2005 20:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Sleeper DL?

Yeah as I explained beforehand world of warcraft is down. So I'm now actually having to concern myself with reality--or well internet forums which are closer to reality for me.

	07-09-2005 03:31									#58
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Actually, Cuba's threat to the U.S. has been given a new lease on life thanks to: Chavez, the growth of the FARC-EP in Columbia, the Bolvian crises, the ouster of the Equadoran president, etc. The left is on the offensive in Latin America, and Cuba stands there, defiant to the U.S., showing another path to neo-imperialism/globalization.

	07-09-2005 03:48									#59
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The US has slept with enemies before...

Cuba would actually be an improvement from the former Iraqi regime and the Chinese, IMO

	07-09-2005 03:57									#60
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I think only the most rabid anti-communist would dsiagree that as far as enemies go, Cuba is among the most beneign. The U.S., however, considers Latin America its special preserve. It looks very dimly on even the smallest threats to its control.

This is actually a great time for the left to move forward, with the U.S. bogged down in the Middle East and now hurt bad in the Delta. We're in no shape to forcing our will in the region. Even so, we're certainly not going to take the pressure of Cuba and make it any easy for other states to escape our orbit.