07-09-2005 17:49									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Anarchists (much like libertarians) seem to have a rather schizophrenic attitude to human nature; on the one side, they believe people to be intrinsically nice enough to make their ideal society work (it shouldn't come to a surprise to anyone that I consider this belief idiotic), on the other they're very prone to demonize their opponents. Are they planning the purge the un-nice among us before erecting utopia, or what?

True for anarchists, not for libertarians. The former are infantile as you describe, wheras the latter can provide a counter-argument to the authoritarian direction and tendencies of western society today. I don't see Libertarians as utopian visionaries, more as defenders of freedoms they think are worth defending.

Painting opponents in a bad light is the norm for any political movement in history, I expect.

	07-09-2005 17:54									#62
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It might be just me, but there seems to be to many lefties that follow Marxism religiously.

	07-09-2005 18:00									#63
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I'd gladly trade Imran for che. Lose a lawyer and gain a Husker/Runza supporter? It's a no-brainer...

	07-09-2005 18:03									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus True for anarchists, not for libertarians. The former are infantile as you describe, wheras the latter can provide a counter-argument to the authoritarian direction and tendencies of western society today. I don't see Libertarians as utopian visionaries, more as defenders of freedoms they think are worth defending.

They want to defend those freedoms by destroying the means to uphold them.

	07-09-2005 18:42									#65
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quote: I'd gladly trade Imran for che. Lose a lawyer and gain a Husker/Runza supporter? It's a no-brainer...

	07-09-2005 18:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Odin It might be just me, but there seems to be to many lefties that follow Marxism religiously.

True, but there are more leftists who oppose Marxism religiously without knowing anything about it.

Then there are leftists like me, who understand Marxism.

Drake,

	07-09-2005 18:55									#67
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does anyone else reading this get the feeling that che's party is comically unimportant?

	07-09-2005 18:57									#68
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Dude, it's the United States. We all comically unimportant. I, at least, can laugh about it, but some folks inside seem to think that's a sacriledge.

Actually, for our size, the American left can have a surprising impact. Remember Seattle? Also, the anti-war movement was built by two communist groups in this country, although the liberals later broke away for fear of being red-baited. Damn liberals!

	07-09-2005 18:57									#69
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Hardly so, Cockney, because, like it or not, your life has been to no end bettered by us communists, even though you don't know it.

quote: Then there are leftists like me, who understand Marxism.

Yeah, but what about that quote on human beings having limits?

	07-09-2005 18:59									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: Then there are leftists like me, who understand Marxism. Yeah, but what about that quote on human beings having limits?

Marx was a materialist. One would think he recognized that human beings were limited.

	07-09-2005 19:02									#71
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Limits on the possibilities of human beings aren't the consequence of materialism. In fact, I see the historical inevitability in marx writings completely impossibile in such a case.

	07-09-2005 19:05									#72
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that's cool che

it just seems from what you post that your party spends most of its time arguing amounst themselves, rather than working together towards your aims (whatever they may be), i guess you've got that in common with leftie groups around the world though.

	07-09-2005 19:07									#73
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az, i'm gonna stick my neck out and say that both your life and mine has been improved more by us capitalists than by commies, but i'd hate to turn this into a serious debate

	07-09-2005 19:08									#74
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So, this is what happened to Green Peace, this is what happened to most environmental activist group etc leftist group. For right wing groups, skinheads is what happened to them, and fascists and racists.

THe idiots will always come and take over every good idea. That's why the smart ones don't even start them like that .

You, Che, started this whole thing now. Are you ready to be responsible for the 'action' done by these stupid idiots?

	07-09-2005 19:09									#75
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I'm not sure if this thread topic is ironic or not? On the one hand is the obvious humour of the situation. On the other hand Che is one of the few lefties on this site that I'm willing to discuss anything political with (since he's never shown himself to be of the usual naive mouthbreathing ilk).

	07-09-2005 19:10									#76
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney that's cool che it just seems from what you post that your party spends most of its time arguing amounst themselves, rather than working together towards your aims.

Parts of it do, yes. The whole point of this particular tendency is to dispense with the arguing and get on with the demonstrating or organizing solidarity support for coffeeshop employees.

We all have our own little projects. I'm trying to build a local in my neck of Florida, for example. 1,100 people voted Socialist in this county in the last Presidential election. Obviously there's base here.

	07-09-2005 19:21									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Az Limits on the possibilities of human beings aren't the consequence of materialism. In fact, I see the historical inevitability in marx writings completely impossibile in such a case.

Well, historical inevitablity shouldn't be taken to mean a natural, unavoidable process, which will simply happen if we don't take action. His statement was premised on the belief that no human beings would put up with what the proletariat had to put up with in the 19th and early 20th Centuries in the West, and everywhere else still today. It was premised on the idea of active, not passive, human beings taking control of history.

After all, that's the whole point, we take control of history, rather than history controling us. We take control of the economy, rather than the economy controling us. Etc. We become the subjects instead of being the objects.

There's nothing inherent in that ideology which says that human beings, therefore, are unlimited in their potential. Now, it might be wiser to take a scientific view, and simply say, we do not and cannot know yet whether humans are potentially unlimited, since we have not explored all of the existing and potential possibilities.

But I think that's somewhat like agnositism, a refusal to take a stand. I think that the nature of reality necessarily means that there are limits to what we can ever do. We are rooted in a physical reality. Our will is a products of that physical reality. Human beings will never fly on Earth without the aid of machines (and probably not anywhere else because a planet with low enough gravity for humans to fly wouldn't have enough air to provide lift).

	07-09-2005 19:21									#78
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'm not sure if this thread topic is ironic or not? On the one hand is the obvious humour of the situation. On the other hand Che is one of the few lefties on this site that I'm willing to discuss anything political with (since he's never shown himself to be of the usual naive mouthbreathing ilk).

There's a thread for this.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=138314

	07-09-2005 19:23									#79
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About the OP: that's exactly how I feel every so often. I too have people in my neck of the woods who say that everything is bad except a strict observance of their particular agenda. Demonization of other organizations, demonization of all the people who are in these organizations, you name it...

But the worst thing is these people's complete self-absorbedness. If they ran things in the party, we'd never get votes from anybody but of some members. No ordinary citizen would bother with hearing such rants.

	07-09-2005 19:29									#80
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I met a really hot socialist chick in my Euro history class yesterday. She had her head on straight.

Too bad your friends dont Che.

So basically, what im trying to say/ask is, How do I ask a socialist chick out?

	07-09-2005 19:30									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'd gladly trade Imran for che. Lose a lawyer and gain a Husker/Runza supporter? It's a no-brainer...

I don't remember runzas... but GO BIG RED all the way baby!!

	07-09-2005 19:32									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I met a really hot socialist chick in my Euro history class yesterday. She had her head on straight. Too bad your friends dont Che. So basically, what im trying to say/ask is, How do I ask a socialist chick out?

errr...how about...i dunno...just asking her?!

	07-09-2005 19:35									#83
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney errr...how about...i dunno...just asking her?!

that is sound advice.

but shes moving to Israel at the end of the year, so I'm not touchin that.

Damn Socialism

	07-09-2005 19:37									#84
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Ask her to liberate your proletariat.

	07-09-2005 20:05									#86
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Tell her you are going to go see some small band of poor actors do some godawful play, and ask her to come with you to support the working class...

Or do what Che said..

Honestly, I don;t mind Marxists, since at least they, if they are true Marxists, try to have a scientific or logical basis to thier arguements. I really can't stand liberterians, anarchists, or the hippie dippie types. Arguements based mostly on emotion and claims of absolutes which they can't possibly back up with anything logical....

That said, I don't buy the whole "economic man" bit, so I can never be a Marxists, thought I can buy the Hegelian Thesis, antithesis, synthesis bit.

	07-09-2005 20:51									#87
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Honestly, I don;t mind Marxists, since at least they, if they are true Marxists, try to have a scientific or logical basis to thier arguements. I really can't stand liberterians, anarchists, or the hippie dippie types. Arguements based mostly on emotion and claims of absolutes which they can't possibly back up with anything logical....

Try some Marxist Libertarians then.

http://www.spiked-online.com/

	07-09-2005 20:54									#88
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Are they the remnents of Living Marxism, the Marxist-turned-libertarian group that got sued by that Brit news network?

	07-09-2005 20:58									#89
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Yes, that is them.

	07-09-2005 21:10									#90
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I always kinda liked them. I thought they raised good points and arguments that got ignored by the Marxist left, even if I didn't necessarily agree with all of their conclusions.