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Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski

Yeah and then after i did that, id find my self in a padded white room with secret service agents asking me what i know bout the jelly beans and peanuts and the infamous blue dress
no, it would be like that simpsons episode... they would spray you with rum and let you walk home and nobody would believe your story... RUMMY!

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
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Feb 2002
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The Mrs. forgot about the 3 before (in reverse order):

The Klutz

The Crook

The Clown.

ACK!

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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 10:14
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And those that went before,

The Con
&
The Kraut.

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  Old Post 09-09-2005 10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack_www
I think FEMA also sucked too, but the city and state could have done things that could have saved a lot of people's lives.


Well, that's the thing. local and State governments have a LOT of priorities, a lot of things to do: thinking about how they will deal with Catastrophes of biblical proportion is really NEVER what will be in the front of their minds, simply because in that case, you are really screwed. You are correct, given how everyone saw this coming, the Lousiana authorities should have had a more comprehensive plan. But this is the deep south, and these are poor people we are talking about, lets not kid ourselves about just how much was going to be planned for the poor.

FEMA on the other hand exists solely for the purposes of helping in case of a disaster. This is their whole reason for being. Its a bit harder for me to excuse utter incompetence in dealing with a natural disaster form an agency whose sole purpose is that compared to governments with the full range od government duties.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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Oct 2001
time: 14:37
  Old Post 09-09-2005 10:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
What I'd like to see is one of the pro-Bush people to explain specifically what desirable traits George has brought to the presidency. Why not match our 'mindless' criticism with intelligent praise?


http://www.economist.com/agenda/dis...368975&fsrc=nwl

Not many Presidents have the guts to engage the country in long-term projects that, while risky, can make the world a better place. Fewer still have the tenacity and moral clarity that allows them to stick with such projects even when circumstances and poll numbers are working against them.

I doubt everyone will find these to be positive qualities in a leader, but I know some of us do...

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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May 2001
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 11:02 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Not many Presidents have the guts to engage the country in long-term projects that, while risky, can make the world a better place. Fewer still have the tenacity and moral clarity that allows them to stick with such projects even when circumstances and poll numbers are working against them.


From the article you linked:

quote:
True enough, American pressure for democratisation has been inconsistent. The much-touted American aid programme meant to promote reform, the Middle East Partnership Initiative, gets less cash in a year than what America spends in Iraq in a day. Washington bureaucracy delayed funds for some democracy activists in Egypt. Others that did get American money include groups seeking to monitor the elections, but a quasi-official election commission blocked them from doing the job.

American policy priorities have also clashed with reformist goals. Pursuing terrorism by “rendering” suspects to torture-prone governments undercuts the many local groups lobbying to end such practices. Rather than being hailed as a model for pluralism, Iraq is widely seen as a chaos to be avoided. Many Arabs view its new constitution as the outcome of an American plot to divide and rule. Most Arab reformers warm much more to the caustic critiques of American filmmaker Michael Moore than to George Bush’s “forward strategy of freedom”. Most believe that when push comes to shove, America’s thirst for oil will exceed its democratic principles.


Which gives the lie to the idea that Dubya has managed to stick to anything other than the craw of decent-minded people.

Straybow is offline Straybow
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But Drake, Bush only did this for his oil buddies! You can't bring up stuff like making the world a better place by ridding Iraq of Saddam Hussein. Only evil can come of this because Bush is teh evil.

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, it'd didn't. It was supposed to stand up to a fast Cat 3. It didn't. Katie was a 4 where it made landfall but was only a Cat 2 in NOLA, and a Cat 3 in Biloxi. Now there are certain geographical features that may have magnified the impact of the storm in Lake Ponchetrain, but we don't know yet, whether those were in play.

Well, let's see what the previously cited Mr. Timeline says
quote:
Monday, August 29

7AM – KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL AS A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE [CNN]

8AM – MAYOR NAGIN REPORTS THAT WATER IS FLOWING OVER LEVEE

The reach of a hurricane this size isn't confined to the storm center. The problems started long before the center dropped to cat 3 or went inland to NO. And yes, the orientation of the winds and the geography of Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne were the primary factors in topping the levees.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 11:13
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quote:
Which gives the lie to the idea that Dubya has managed to stick to anything other than the craw of decent-minded people.


I don't see how it does. Bush has little control over bureaucratic hold-ups in Washington or the opinions of the Arab street.

He has recently refused to place a timetable on withdrawal for Iraq and vowed to stay until the job is finished, despite plenty of opposition to such a course, even from within his own administration. Such behavior seem far more relevant to judging Bush's sticktoittivness than the passage you excerpted.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 11:29 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Bush is the kinda guy who would drive over a cliff rather than change direction.

MosesPresley is offline MosesPresley
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 19:54 Visit MosesPresley's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


http://www.economist.com/agenda/dis...368975&fsrc=nwl

Not many Presidents have the guts to engage the country in long-term projects that, while risky, can make the world a better place. Fewer still have the tenacity and moral clarity that allows them to stick with such projects even when circumstances and poll numbers are working against them.

I doubt everyone will find these to be positive qualities in a leader, but I know some of us do...


Is that the only thing that you can come up with, that he has the guts to take risks? Why is risk taking considered an admirable trait in a world leader? If I went into an interview and told my potential employer, that I was a risk taker, but don't worry, in the long term the company will be better for it, I don't think I would make it to the second interview.

When Bush was running for office, he never said anything about running on a platform of risk taking.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley


Is that the only thing that you can come up with, that he has the guts to take risks? Why is risk taking considered an admirable trait in a world leader? If I went into an interview and told my potential employer, that I was a risk taker, but don't worry, in the long term the company will be better for it, I don't think I would make it to the second interview.

When Bush was running for office, he never said anything about running on a platform of risk taking.



Actually if you understood politico speak he said precisely that. He pretty much said would not be like his predecessor a man bowing to the whim or poll of the day. That pretty much speaks to the fact that he was going to do what he thought (right or wrongly) was the appropriate course of action be damned what the polls said.

Now one can say his judgment on the matters may be flawed and certainly the execution is putrid.

MosesPresley is offline MosesPresley
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 21:02 Visit MosesPresley's homepage!
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Oh I see, if only I understood the secret politico code that Bush speaks in. That explains a lot.

Bush never said he was going to be a risk taker. He didn't say it in politico code or otherwise.

He did say that he would "restore honor and integrity" to the white house though. Is that politico for "I'm going to trash the US's economy, let the terrorists hit our cities, alienate our allies, start a war based on lies and ineptitude, further enrich the wealthy, starve the poor and generally not be available when a natural disaster strikes?"

I think I'm starting to understand this politico code.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 21:55 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Oh snap!
http://anon.salon.speedera.net/anon.../blame_game.mov

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:04
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I can not believe some of the stuff coming about about "Brownie" these past couple days... the horse association stuff is nothing.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley
Oh I see, if only I understood the secret politico code that Bush speaks in. That explains a lot.

Bush never said he was going to be a risk taker. He didn't say it in politico code or otherwise.

He did say that he would "restore honor and integrity" to the white house though. Is that politico for "I'm going to trash the US's economy, let the terrorists hit our cities, alienate our allies, start a war based on lies and ineptitude, further enrich the wealthy, starve the poor and generally not be available when a natural disaster strikes?"

I think I'm starting to understand this politico code.


Precisely. And when Hillary claims she will support the military and try to create jobs from those that have gone overseas. That will mean she will look to pull the baby killing militant storm troopers (in her hippy baby booming lefto pinko vietnam biased against the military mind set) troops from Iraq here to the US.

Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:12
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I can't believe Che said "oh snap!"

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:14 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Just watch the video.

MosesPresley is offline MosesPresley
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:22 Visit MosesPresley's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Precisely. And when Hillary claims she will support the military and try to create jobs from those that have gone overseas. That will mean she will look to pull the baby killing militant storm troopers (in her hippy baby booming lefto pinko vietnam biased against the military mind set) troops from Iraq here to the US.


What does Hillary have to do with Bush's ineptitude?

George W. Bush is the best argument against dynasties. There should be a constitutional amendment against any immediate close family members of a president being allowed to run for POTUS for at least one or two generations.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley


What does Hillary have to do with Bush's ineptitude?

George W. Bush is the best argument against dynasties. There should be a constitutional amendment against any immediate close family members of a president being allowed to run for POTUS for at least one or two generations.


We weren't talking about Bush ineptitude per se but moreover politco speak.

I simply gave an example from the left to counter the politco example given from the right.

Both sides do it and both sides aren't worth a sh!te.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by MosesPresley


There should be a constitutional amendment against any immediate close family members of a president being allowed to run for POTUS for at least one or two generations.


Now now lets not be hasty. The Adam's family had two good-uns.

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  Old Post 09-09-2005 22:51 Visit MosesPresley's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe

Both sides do it and both sides aren't worth a sh!te.




quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Now now lets not be hasty. The Adam's family had two good-uns.


Those guys were from the Age of Enlightenment. Our current pool of politicians are baby boomers mostly, the Me Generation.

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Chertoff is giving "Brownie" the non-firing firing right now.

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  Old Post 10-09-2005 00:12
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Yes, a scapegoat has been brought to slaughter

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4231170.stm
quote:
US emergency aid chief sidelined

Michael Brown had faced growing criticism
The top US emergencies official has been removed from his role managing the Katrina relief effort on the ground, the federal government has announced.
Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is being sent back to Washington from Louisiana where he has been overseeing aid work.

He is being replaced by Coast Guard Vice Adm Thad W Allen.

Announcing the reshuffle, Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff said Mr Brown would remain head of Fema.
---

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Not all bashers are hippie democrats

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4229238.stm

quote:
Powell criticises storm response

Former US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said he fails to understand why better preparations were not made before Hurricane Katrina struck.
Two-thirds of Americans think President George W Bush could have done more to tackle the floods and damage in the south, one opinion poll suggests.

---

President Bush is to begin a third visit to the disaster zone on Sunday, with stops in both Mississippi and Louisiana, a spokesman said.

American political figures in both the Republican and Democrat parties have accused the authorities of responding slowly.

There were "a lot of failures at a lot of levels - local, state and federal", Mr Powell told ABC.

"There was more than enough warning over time about the dangers to New Orleans - not enough was done," he said.

Mr Powell's views will be heard with particular interest as he is a highly respected figure and a prominent black American, the BBC's Justin Webb reports from Washington.

The Pew Research Center, which ran the new opinion poll, also indicated that two-thirds of the African-Americans questioned believed the government reaction would have been faster if most of those affected had been white.

But Mr Powell said so many African-Americans were left unprotected be cause they were poor, rather than because they were black.

It "should have been a blinding flash of the obvious... that when you order a mandatory evacuation, you can't expect everybody to evacuate on their own", he said.

Debate still rages in Washington into how independent the inquiries being launched into Katrina - led by President Bush himself and the Senate - will really be.

US Under-Secretary of State Karen Hughes stood by the president's response to the crisis.

"He's the president of all the people that we saw, who so desperately needed help and... wants to make sure that we get everyone the help they need, that we get New Orleans cleaned up and that we get about the business of rebuilding," he told the BBC.

---

Jack_www is offline Jack_www
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  Old Post 10-09-2005 00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap


Well, that's the thing. local and State governments have a LOT of priorities, a lot of things to do: thinking about how they will deal with Catastrophes of biblical proportion is really NEVER what will be in the front of their minds, simply because in that case, you are really screwed. You are correct, given how everyone saw this coming, the Lousiana authorities should have had a more comprehensive plan. But this is the deep south, and these are poor people we are talking about, lets not kid ourselves about just how much was going to be planned for the poor.



This diaster was predicted by many many experts. People knew that New Orleans was one of the areas that was at high risk of getting hit by a hurricane. Not being prepared for it, there is no excuse.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Well, when you're poor, it's hard to do the things you need to do. I need renters' insurance, but I can't afford it, so I just hope the big one doesn't hit or we don't get a fire until I can afford it.

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  Old Post 10-09-2005 01:29 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Yes, a scapegoat has been brought to slaughter


He's not a scapegoat. He ****ed up, very badly. He deserves what he gets. There are many others who need to be sacked, like Chertoff, Bush, Naygon, Blacno, etc., but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Brown. His ineptitude killed people.

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  Old Post 10-09-2005 01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Not all bashers are hippie democrats




I would agree.


quote:


Assigning blame
Charles Krauthammer

WASHINGTON -- In less enlightened times, there was no catastrophe independent of human agency. When the plague or some other natural disaster struck, witches were burned, Jews were massacred and all felt better (except the witches and Jews).

A few centuries later, our progressive thinkers have progressed not an inch. No fall of a sparrow on this planet is not attributed to sin and human perfidy. The three current favorites are: (1) global warming, (2) the war in Iraq and (3) tax cuts. Katrina hits and the unholy trinity is immediately invoked to damn sinner-in-chief George W. Bush.

This kind of stupidity merits no attention whatsoever, but I'll give it a paragraph. There is no relationship between global warming and the frequency and intensity of Atlantic hurricanes. Period. The problem with the evacuation of New Orleans is not that National Guardsmen in Iraq could not get to New Orleans, but that National Guardsmen in Louisiana did not get to New Orleans. As for the Bush tax cuts, administration budget requests for New Orleans flood control during the five Bush years exceed that of the five preceding Clinton years. The notion that the allegedly missing revenues would have been spent wisely by Congress, targeted precisely to the levees of New Orleans, and reconstruction would have been completed in time, is a threefold fallacy. The argument ends when you realize that, as The Washington Post notes, ``the levees that failed were already completed projects."

Let's be clear. The author of this calamity was, first and foremost, Nature (or if you prefer, Nature's God). The suffering was augmented, aided and abetted in descending order of culpability by the following:

1. The mayor of New Orleans. He knows the city. He knows the danger. He knows that during Hurricane Georges in 1998, the use of the Superdome was a disaster and fully two-thirds of the residents never got out of the city. Nothing was done. He declared a mandatory evacuation only 24 hours before Hurricane Katrina hit. He did not even declare a voluntary evacuation until the day before that, at 5 p.m. At that time, he explained that he needed to study his legal authority to call a mandatory evacuation and was hesitating to do so lest the city be sued by hotels and other businesses.

2. The Louisiana governor. It's her job to call up the National Guard and get it to where it has to go. Where the Guard was in the first few days is a mystery. Indeed, she issued an authorization for the National Guard to commandeer school buses to evacuate people on Wednesday afternoon -- more than two days after the hurricane hit and after much of the fleet had already drowned in its parking lots.

3. The head of FEMA. Late, slow and in way over his head. On Thursday he says on national television that he didn't even know there were people in the Convention Center, when anybody watching television could see them there destitute and desperate. Maybe in his vast bureaucracy he can assign three 20-year-olds to watch cable news and give him updates every hour on what in hell is going on.

4. The president. Late, slow and simply out of tune with the urgency and magnitude of the disaster. The second he heard that the levees had been breached in New Orleans, he should have canceled his schedule and addressed the country on national television to mobilize it both emotionally and physically to assist in the disaster. His flyover on the way to Washington was the worst possible symbolism. And his Friday visit was so tone-deaf and politically disastrous that he had to fly back three days later.

5. Congress. Now as always playing holier-than-thou. Perhaps it might ask itself who created the Department of Homeland Security in the first place. The congressional response to all crises is the same -- rearrange the bureaucratic boxes, but be sure to add one extra layer. The last four years of DHS have been spent principally on bureaucratic reorganization (and real estate) instead of, say, a workable plan for as predictable a disaster as a Gulf Coast hurricane.

6. The American people. They have made it impossible for any politician to make any responsible energy policy over the last 30 years -- but that is a column for another day. Now is not the time for constructive suggestions. Now is the time for blame, recriminations and sheer astonishment. Mayor Nagin has announced that, as bodies are still being found and as a public health catastrophe descends upon the city, he is sending 60 percent of his cops on city funds for a little R&R, mostly to Vegas hotels. Asked if it was appropriate to party in these circumstances, he responded: ``New Orleans is a party town. Get over it.''

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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quote:
Gingrich said the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina "puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?"

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  Old Post 10-09-2005 04:30
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...

WE DON'T NEED MORE ANTITERRORIST FUNDING, FFS

Terrorism isn't nearly the danger it's made out to be.

 
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