11-09-2005 02:24									#31
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No it's not. With contracting you find the lowest bidder.

	11-09-2005 02:27									#32
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Only if you use certain types of competitive bidding.

	11-09-2005 02:31									#33
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@Kid: What matters isn't if you get the lowest bidders, what matters is if you get more or less benefit for the same cost.

	11-09-2005 02:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wal-mart is destroying America, Gramps. I'm not gonna say bad things about them helping people out in a crisis, but how many other communities has Wal-Mart destroyed across the country? I can tell you one, Oberlin, OH, home of Rubbermaid. Keep your head down, just in case Ophelia blows your way.

I agree and again was merely thanking Walmart for this individual effort

Ophelia..we been having rip currents for a week and wind is very strong today, still 3 days away from impact should it come through

Back to topic

	11-09-2005 02:42									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @Kid: What matters isn't if you get the lowest bidders, what matters is if you get more or less benefit for the same cost.

How would Walmart be compensated though? Are you going to give them a profit margin on their expenditures?

	11-09-2005 02:44									#36
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Uh, presumably they'd be compensated with money.

quote: Instead of chucking money at FEMA, you chuck it at Walmart's Disaster Relief Division or whatever.

Walmart and other bidders would hope to be able to use the money more efficiently than FEMA, allowing them to provide better service for slightly less money. That = profit.

	11-09-2005 02:50									#37
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You aren't getting it Kuci. You can't set a price. If the price is too high there is waste. If the price is too low people don't get saved.

	11-09-2005 02:54									#38
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*sigh*

Congress gives FEMA X billion dollars per year. Instead of giving it to FEMA, you give it to Walmart's Disaster Relief Division. They do the same thing as FEMA, exactly, except presumably they do it more efficiently, because they have tons of experience with logistics and stuff. Ergo, more bang for you buck. If the efficiency gain is large enough, Walmart can actually pocket some of the money, still giving us more bang for our buck AND getting profit.

	11-09-2005 02:58									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The government isn't subject to market forces [nearly as much]. So, like LC said, maybe we ought to contract out logistics and such to people like Walmart.

That's not the point. No planned economy is subject to direct market forces, since it doesn't need to operate according to the price system - we know what people need, we don't have to set a market price. For example if you know what your resources are, and what everyone in your village wants, making a market would be a waste of time - there's a reason tribal societies like the Maori didn't operate according to market principles - it would have been a waste of time. Similarly companies for the most part don't operate on market principles internally, because that would be dumb too.

Do you understand at all what markets are for? They are a distribution system that we use when it is too difficult to find out what people need directly. When that difficulty is overcome it is simply easier to realize what people want and make a plan to produce it.

Planned economies like the Soviet Union had a tough time because they simply didn't have the information required to know what had to be produced in order to meet their needs. Wherever you don't have that information it is usually better to decentralize production through a market. Information technology is making that less true every day. Wal Mart is efficient for this very reason.

	11-09-2005 02:59									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker *sigh* Congress gives FEMA X billion dollars per year. Instead of giving it to FEMA, you give it to Walmart's Disaster Relief Division. They do the same thing as FEMA, exactly, except presumably they do it more efficiently, because they have tons of experience with logistics and stuff. Ergo, more bang for you buck. If the efficiency gain is large enough, Walmart can actually pocket some of the money, still giving us more bang for our buck AND getting profit.

You are assuming that Wal Mart would really want to get into that business. We might have to pay them an even higher amount to do it.

	11-09-2005 03:03									#41
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Dude, I'm just explaining how it would presumably work to Kid. You're getting too complicated

	11-09-2005 03:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Do you understand at all what markets are for? They are a distribution system that we use when it is too difficult to find out what people need directly. When that difficulty is overcome it is simply easier to realize what people want and make a plan to produce it.

And in a competitive system those with the best plans end up winning. That's why Walmart is so good at logistics - because those who had worse logistics had higher costs and were less competitive.

	11-09-2005 03:10									#43
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quote: Wal-mart is destroying America, Gramps. I'm not gonna say bad things about them helping people out in a crisis, but how many other communities has Wal-Mart destroyed across the country? I can tell you one, Oberlin, OH, home of Rubbermaid.

If Sam was still around I wonder if Wal Mart would be selling so many Chinese products and have all these executives reeling in multimillions and getting caught up in scandals or be trying to sell clothing even mildly fashionable...

But either way, we've already had the Rubbermaid discussion. Suppliers have a choice if they want to supply Wal Mart or not...

	11-09-2005 03:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's not the point. No planned economy is subject to direct market forces, since it doesn't need to operate according to the price system - we know what people need, we don't have to set a market price. For example if you know what your resources are, and what everyone in your village wants, making a market would be a waste of time - there's a reason tribal societies like the Maori didn't operate according to market principles - it would have been a waste of time. Similarly companies for the most part don't operate on market principles internally, because that would be dumb too. Do you understand at all what markets are for? They are a distribution system that we use when it is too difficult to find out what people need directly. When that difficulty is overcome it is simply easier to realize what people want and make a plan to produce it. Planned economies like the Soviet Union had a tough time because they simply didn't have the information required to know what had to be produced in order to meet their needs. Wherever you don't have that information it is usually better to decentralize production through a market. Information technology is making that less true every day. Wal Mart is efficient for this very reason.

Great post. Though I would question how close we're coming to that level of information. It may be less true every day, but we're still a long way from perfect information, from knowing what type of each product, in what numbers, every consumer wants. Moreover, if we ever get to that stage, it would probably been seen as violating people's privacy, as the government or body providing the goods they require would know exactly what they want, when they want it - a huge amount of personal information. Do we want that?

	11-09-2005 03:59									#45
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I love this thread. Several posters stopped making sense almost immediately.

	11-09-2005 04:03									#46
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quote: I love this thread. Several posters stopped making sense almost immediately.

I'm glad it's not me. I never made sense to begin with.

	11-09-2005 04:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Great post. Though I would question how close we're coming to that level of information. It may be less true every day, but we're still a long way from perfect information, from knowing what type of each product, in what numbers, every consumer wants. Moreover, if we ever get to that stage, it would probably been seen as violating people's privacy, as the government or body providing the goods they require would know exactly what they want, when they want it - a huge amount of personal information. Do we want that?

I thought this. Then I noticed that almost no one seems to care about the air miles scam.

	11-09-2005 05:03									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I thought this. Then I noticed that almost no one seems to care about the air miles scam.

Ehrm, I thought that you was in favor of a society where the state had that kind of information

	11-09-2005 05:16									#49
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Good for Walmart. Nice to hear that some folks are working to be part of the solution rather then the problem.

	11-09-2005 05:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Good for Walmart. Nice to hear that some folks are working to be part of the solution rather then the problem.

You forget that WM is part of the problem !!!

Glad to see you still are around - I owe you one - sadly RL disturbs

	11-09-2005 05:37									#51
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Ah, well feel free to tell me how you are in my debt. I've been super busy lately with school, and haven't been as vocal on Poly.

	11-09-2005 06:26									#52
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Read your PM's. Oh, an yes, there has been some peace on poly lately

	11-09-2005 06:36									#53
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Good on Wal-Mart for helping out.


Though it is nice all the Strawmen setups in this thread.

	11-09-2005 07:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell If Sam was still around I wonder if Wal Mart would be selling so many Chinese products and have all these executives reeling in multimillions and getting caught up in scandals or be trying to sell clothing even mildly fashionable...

That's what companies do in a capitalist market. What else could you expect when the stock market fluctuates on quarterly reports.

	11-09-2005 07:30									#55
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Ehrm, I thought that you was in favor of a society where the state had that kind of information

Sometimes I wonder if you and Winston aren't bots that read every third word in a post.

	11-09-2005 07:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sometimes I wonder if you and Winston aren't bots that read every third word in a post.

Well, I guess that you need bots to fight bots

	11-09-2005 11:13									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wal-mart is destroying America, Gramps. I'm not gonna say bad things about them helping people out in a crisis, but how many other communities has Wal-Mart destroyed across the country? I can tell you one, Oberlin, OH, home of Rubbermaid. Keep your head down, just in case Ophelia blows your way.

Stop back at 'poly for the first time in awhile, and see this. What huh?! If Oberlin's community got destroyed, I sure didn't notice it. I believe that there's a Wal-Mart in nearby Elyria (that only opened in 1992. Yes, I just called it up and checked), but so is a Super-K and so on. Oberlin's pathetic main street of commerce remains, not really improved or dimmed compared to past years as best I can tell. The town's economy is still based around the college and the FAA enroute center at its base, with some farming to supplement it. If Rubbermaid used to operate out of here, I must have missed it in any mentions of the history of the town, and don't see why it would be pushed out due to Wal-Mart.

And oh yes. When Wal-Mart wanted to expand more into Lorain County (I know they did a year or so ago), I believe that there was much fuss & hullabaloo that it would annihilate all known life-forms, etc. Might just be college rag blather, but Lorain County has some pretty fervent anti-big-business democrats in charge, last I checked. I wouldn't be surprised at all for them to put up all sorts of roadblocks to more expansion.

Could you enlighten me as to what you were getting at? This a very recent development, or one way back in the past, or did I just totally miss it during my college years?

	11-09-2005 12:07									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll Ya know I been through Half as dozen Hurricanes, fortunately not one as devasting as Katrina I had to work several weeks helping restore roadways to Topsail Island working in excess of 100 hours per week with limited food and thanks to Red Cross meal wagons.. We were without power for over a week and not the biggest headache but my point is everyone whom helped I am grateful because I wasnt at home I had to work to help gety the community back on its feet. I agree it is miniscule to what is needed but what is wrong with applauding Wal-Marts efforts? Whats wrong with acknowledging what they did? So what if they get some sort of benefit out of it? These people need help and need it now and much more of it. I just wish people would use same energy in helping as they do criticizing efforts such as this. Thanks you Mr. Sam Walton for establishing this chain and its standards showing through even though clouds have been in place... Gramps

I did applaud them. For helping in a very small way.

But I'm more concerned that this example will be used to 'prove' that disaster relief should be contracted out to private firms. Don't you think it's reasonable to sound a note of caution, and point out that this was a small operation?

	11-09-2005 21:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker *sigh* Congress gives FEMA X billion dollars per year. Instead of giving it to FEMA, you give it to Walmart's Disaster Relief Division. They do the same thing as FEMA, exactly, except presumably they do it more efficiently, because they have tons of experience with logistics and stuff. Ergo, more bang for you buck. If the efficiency gain is large enough, Walmart can actually pocket some of the money, still giving us more bang for our buck AND getting profit.

I agree that Walmart is better at logistics, but there's an obvious problem here with Walmart pocketing money if there are no disasters that year.

	12-09-2005 09:00									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Walmart can actually pocket some of the money, still giving us more bang for our buck AND getting profit.

What happens if Wal-Mart headquarters gets destroyed by an earthquake from the New Madrid fault?