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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:37
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Seeker, elaborate? Any leaning on the author's side? I'm a bit picky about this these days.
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Zulu Elephant
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Mentioned it before but..."The Unconquerable World" by Jonathan Schell
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VetLegion
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Echthy, are you interested in economic history? I have some links to online lectures I can look up.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:37
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Hmm.... well yeah that'd be interesting. can't guarantee I'll take the time to read them though.
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VetLegion
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No reading, online video lectures.
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VetLegion
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OK, here are the links from my archive:
quote:
Kenneth Pomeranz Explores Reasons Why the Industrial Revolution Succeeded in Europe But Failed in East Asia
"The economies of the most advanced regions of East Asia and Europe were surprisingly similar as late as 1750, which suggests we need some rethinking of the traditional stories of industrialization," says Kenneth Pomeranz, chair of the history department at the University of California at Irvine. In a lecture sponsored by the Weatherhead East Asian Institute, Pomeranz explores the reasons why the Industrial Revolution took off in Europe but failed in East Asia. |
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/vfo...meranz_lecture/
quote:
CES Internet Lecture
The Industrial Revolution and the Great Divergence:
World Economic Growth since 10,000 BC
(3 lectures)
with Gregory Clark (University of California, Davis) |
http://www.cesifo-group.de/link/_vi...t-clark2002.htm
quote:
An Introduction to Global Economy History
(3 lectures)
with Patrick O'Brien |
http://www.cesifo-group.de/link/_vi...-obrien2003.htm
quote:
October 9, 2002 - Louis Clark Vanuxem Lectures
Jared Diamond, UCLA: "Collapses of Ancient Societies and their Lessons for Today" |
http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/
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Bereta_Eder
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echty german thug. you ask a angloamerican gay **** off topic forum and their jenisaries for advice. of course theyr'e going to give you their books.
hell even mein kampf or what's it's called it's better than theirs.
so go find your own books dufus
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecthy
Food in history reminds me a bit about GGS. That Euro gold and silver part is interesting though. Thanks 
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quote:
An enthralling world history of food from prehistoric times to the present. A favorite of gastronomes and history buffs alike, 'Food in History' is packed with intriguing information, lore, and startling insights--like what cinnamon had to do with the discovery of America, and how food has influenced population growth and urban expansion. |
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...975000?v=glance
I can't remember off-hand, but some talking head was on television saying something about how European civilizations were 'always' rediscovering India- as a source of luxury finished goods, and as a source of foodstuffs and science/philosophy.
Either directly, as conquerors (Alexander) or Romano-Greek-Egyptian traders who established a presence in Calicut and in Sri Lanka (especially after Trajan's time).
Huge amounts of Roman silver bullion were being traded either directly or indirectly with China and India, and although Rome also traded finished goods and raw materials such as glassware, metal goods and coral, there was definitely an economic imbalance.
quote:
Ancient India had considerable trade links with the Middle East, Europe (Greece and Rome) as well as China. This trade was carried out over land partly along what came to be alluded to as the silk route and partly through maritime trade. By the time of Pliny, the Roman historian, Roman trade with India was thriving, and indeed creating a balance of payments problem for the Roman Empire. In South India, which had a thriving maritime trade, Roman coins even circulated in their original form, albeit slashed at times as a gesture disclaiming intrusions of foreign sovereignty. |
http://www.rbi.org.in/currency/museum/c-ancient.html
Roman Find in South India:
 Attachment: tromanseptimiusobv.jpg
This has been downloaded 66 time(s).
Last edited by molly bloom on 16-09-2005 at 16:31
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VetLegion
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That is true. Romans whined about loosing hard currency every year on luxury imports from the east. Later, Europe's deficits with Asia were financed by the Potosi silver. Europe simply had nothing else to trade. It's cloth and manufactures were of inferior quality to those produced in the east until the industrial revolution.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
That is true. Romans whined about loosing hard currency every year on luxury imports from the east. Later, Europe's deficits with Asia were financed by the Potosi silver.
It's cloth and manufactures were of inferior quality to those produced in the east until the industrial revolution. |
One thing that did interest me was talking with a doctor friend about some of the possible effects of lead poisoning- diarrhoea, depressed appetite, colic- and then thinking about the passion the Romans had for highly spiced foods, and combinations of salt and sour and sweet.
quote:
WINES
Peppers were known as an important import from India in biblical times. These spices were used in wine as medications for stomach pain, and similar spiced wines were used therapeutically for centuries afterwards by Greeks, Romans and medieval Europeans. |
http://unitproj.library.ucla.edu/bi...displayswitch=0
quote:
Many pungent spices are unattractive to animals (excepting most, humans, many birds and some rodents), and they do have some antimicrobial, gastrointestinal, and mucus-loosening properties. Modern studies suggest that garlic, onion, allspice and oregano are the most potent antibacterial and antifungal agents; thyme, cinnamon, cloves and chile peppers are among the next best, while cardamon, black and yellow pepper, ginger, anise and celery seeds are less effective. However, there is lack of uniformity in findings, and this may reflect non-uniformity in source material. |
I suspect it wasn't all about conspicuous consumption, although giving the most lavish banquets seems to have been definitely a nouveau riche Roman thing to do, sourcing the most bizarre and outre and costly ingredients.
It's fascinating as well that there was definitely a gourmet side to them- they shipped fresh mussels and oysters from the British Isles and were avid consumers of cured ham from Gaul.
I recall from reading Mary Seacole's autobiography that she used spices in tonic drinks in the Crimean War to combat intestinal upsets:
quote:
For centuries, people have been fascinated by cinnamon as a healing potential as well as its unique flavor. The use of cinnamon can be traced back to Egypt around 3000 B.C., where it was used as an embalming agent, to China around 2700 B.C., where it was used medicinally by herbalists. It was also mentioned in the Old Testament. Cinnamon has the distinction of being one of the first commodities traded on a regular basis from the East to the Mediterranean.
Cinnamon, Cassia: antiseptic, anti-diarrhoea
Clove: topical anesthetic, anti-dyspeptic
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As for what the Romans traded, I'd recommend reading 'The Silk Road' by Frances Wood which contains a wealth of information:
quote:
And although a lot of silk did pass down the road(s), it was by no means the most prized commodity -- by the mid-nineteenth century the trade in rhubarb was so great that, when Britain flooded China with opium, the Emperor threatened to ban the export of the laxative, condemning Britons to eternal constipation. (He did not know that an Oxford gardener had been growing the stuff commercially since 1777.) Richthofen could, with some justification, have called it the Rhubarb Road. |
http://www.powells.com/review/2003_11_09.html
It certainly acts as a necessary corrective to the old idea of the Chinese simply exporting everything and sucking up money- their eagerness for foreign novelties and foodstuffs at times rivalled the Roman epicures and gourmands:
quote:
Musk, rubies, diamonds, pearls, Baltic amber and jade joined the caravans, as did horses, elephants, lions and ostriches -- like their Roman counterparts, Chinese Emperors were fond of unusual fauna. Food was a prosaic bulk cargo, and medicinal plants made a tidy profit. (If the Chinese purged the West with rhubarb, they still relied on Persian spinach to cure their hangovers.) |
It's a great read.
Attachment: silkroad.jpg
This has been downloaded 61 time(s).
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecthy
That Euro gold and silver part is interesting though. Thanks |
I thought I might be able to find it for you:
quote:
...spices at first remained scarce, pepper at one stage reaching the astronomical price of £ 50.00 per Roman pound (12 oz).
[...]
With trading conditions eased, Rome's avidity for the luxuries of China became insatiable. By the 2nd Century a.d. caravans regularly left the Chinese city of Lo-yang with silk, ginger, cassia, and malabathrum (cassia leaf), winding their way over the hundreds of miles by Tunhuang, Lop Nor, and Kashgar to the Stone Tower, a great meeting point somehwere north of the Pamirs.
There, in the wilds of Centarl Asia, exquisite Chinese silks and exotic spices were bartered for all that Rome could provide in exchange: glassware, pottery, asbestos cloth, coral beads, intaglio gems, grape wine for the emperor, and above all, gold and silver.
Pliny estimated that Rome was losing the equivalent of roughly £ 10 000 000 of today's money to Asia every year. * |
* 'Food in History' was written in 1973.
The trade in coral:
quote:
“Since the period of the Former Han dynasty coral had been an extremely valuable commodity....
From where and on what route did coral – so highly valued by the Chinese – come to China? Red coral from the western Mediterranean and the Red Sea was one of the major items shipped to the East from the time of the Periplus (28, 39, 49). The histories of the Later Han (HHS: LXXXVIII, 2919), the Three Kingdoms (SKC: XXX, 861) and the Chin (CS: XCVII, 2544) mention coral as a product of Ta-ch’in, i.e. the Roman empire. A later Chinese account gives a detailed description of how coral was collected from the sea in Ta-ch’in: the Romans dropped iron nets on the coral reefs so that the yellowish young coral would grow on them. Three years later they came back to collect the coral once it had turned red (Hsin T’ang-shu: CCXXI, 6261).
Those records definitely refer to Mediterranean red coral. There were three possible routes to ship the coral to China. The most frequented route was the Southern Route to India. In the time of the Periplus the primary destination of coral in Roman cargo ships was India. Pliny mentions that coral was as highly treasured in India as pearls were in Rome (XXXII, 11). Coral beads along with beads of other precious materials have been found in north-Indian sites, for example at Rajghat in the level of the pre-Kushan period (Narain 1976-8: II, 12).... |
http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/si...hu/notes12.html
The trade with southern India:
quote:
These sorts of jars were used to hold wine, sauce or olive oil. These things might have been shipped to Arikamedu for foreign traders who lived here and missed the kind of things they were used to at home. But things like wine could just as well have been bought by well-to-do Indians.
Ancient Tamil poems talk in several places about people they call "yavanas." They talk of yavana merchants bringing in merchandise like fine lamps, gold, and wine and buying cargoes of pepper at the ports of South India. At this time, the word yavana was a general word used for foreigners such as Greeks, Romans, and West Asians. There also some old books in Greek and Latin that tell us about trade between the Roman empire and India between about 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.. They give us the names of ports and lists of goods. Hundreds of Roman gold coins, most of them belonging to the reigns of the Roman emperors Augustus and Tiberius, have been found at many places in India, mostly in the south. All these clues tell us that during this period, there was brisk trade going on between the Roman empire and India.
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http://www.4to40.com/discoverindia/...laces_arikamedu
An amphora from Arikamedu:
 Attachment: amphora_jar.gif
This has been downloaded 56 time(s).
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