16-09-2005 10:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley The link you posted...

Was to show Berz the meaning of the word as he obviously missunderstood what I wrote. I honestly didn't read it beyond that.

quote: Atheists want it removed because its a religious statment, but shouldn't be upset, as the phrase is strictly ceremonial, therefore again without meaning.

That and I fail to see the supposed governmental coercion involved. It just seems like an ideaological mole hill that has been blown out of proportion by a nut with an ax to grind.

	16-09-2005 10:44									#32
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quote: That's grounds for dismissing the teacher but it hardly detracts from the point that legally nothing happens to any student that opts out of uttering the pledge.

Actually, they have to stand in the hallway from what I hear. But you cannot deny that there is for many many children an atmosphere of coercion to stand and recite the pledge. Coercion created by a state representative and authority figure, a teacher no less, "asking" children to stand and recite the pledge and coercion created by the request being made in front of others - their peers. Just because the current law has failed to recognise the coercion it creates does not mean the coercion doesn't exist.

Now, you say the teacher should be disciplined. Has any student ever been the target of anger or disgust from their teacher for standing and reciting the pledge when instructed? Yet we know or suspect many teachers do believe in the pledge and do react negatively to students who refuse it. So armed with that knowledge, how should students react when asked to stand and recite the pledge? Do you think they better stand and go thru the motions just to avoid the hassle? Should they embrace the hassle based on principle?

quote: In general, courts have ruled that some seemingly religious expressions of government, such as the national motto, “One nation under God,” and the words “In God We Trust” on currency, are in reality “ceremonial deism.” The expressions have been seen as devoid of significant religious meaning because of their rote repetition.

And deists did not put the words "under God" into the pledge, they didn't even invent the pledge. They helped invent the Constitution and were foremost in making sure we were to be free from a government asking us daily if we still swear allegiance to the state's god(s).

There is a big difference between government recognition of God and government trying to establish religion. Its like the difference between a manger scene on public property and the police "asking" me each day to convert to the state's religion.

	16-09-2005 11:01									#33
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quote: That and I fail to see the supposed governmental coercion involved.

The government is instructing children to stand and pledge allegiance to its god(s) with our money. We are coerced into paying for the state's attempt to convert our children, and we are coerced into using those public schools where our children are coerced into pledging allegiance to the state's god(s). That all happens before our children even enter the school to be coerced into taking the pledge. Still dont see the coercion?

Hell, who even needs the 1st Amendment? This is unconstitutional on the grounds there is no power in the Constitution authorising Congress to make this daily request of our children!

	16-09-2005 12:41									#34
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Dinodoc - would you be opposed to ceremonially saying "...under Baron Samedi?" He is a legitimate deity (or spirit actually) as recognized by Vodoun. How about under Brahma, we have numerous Americans of Indian ancestry. If you cannot interchange them, and those supporting it would refuse to support it, it doesn't pass the smell test (But THAT'S DIFFERENT). Sadly, the ceremonial deism test is probably going to get past our 100% Judeo-Christian SCOTUS. Do you see any conflict of interest?

	16-09-2005 15:08									#35
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quote: "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

James Madison letter to Edward Livingston, 10th July 1822


Clearly a lot water has passed over the Bush since then...

quote: "When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun in the Lee v. Weisman ruling, 1992.

So if you're a monotheist, hooray for you.

If, on the other hand, you profess no religious belief, or are a polytheist, then too bad, you're on your own.


One nation, under the thumb.

	16-09-2005 17:31									#36
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Now that it's served its Cold War purpose, the phrasing should be returned to the original.

	16-09-2005 17:46									#37
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quote: Now that it's served its Cold War purpose, the phrasing should be returned to the original.

	16-09-2005 19:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's the reason why the motto being on US currency has survived numerous legal challenges even in the Ninth Circuit.

I don't care, I still think it's a load of bull. I'd like to see if they had psychological experts weighing in on the power of rote repitetion to influence people. Saying it has no effect is simply not true.

	16-09-2005 19:33									#39
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Well do you trust in God? Has our money made you a Christian?

	16-09-2005 19:36									#40
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Of course not, but that's never been the point. Derr.

	16-09-2005 19:39									#41
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What's the difference?

	16-09-2005 19:45									#42
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The difference between what? I'm not talking about brainwashing, although I wouldn't be surprised if there were some effects in that department as well. I'm talking about people's religious beliefs or lack thereof being made to seem secondary to a state-sanctioned belief. Having such phrases in official pledges or on money and such adds to an atmosphere of religious preference for our government.

There are no reasons to keep the phrases other than religiously-biased ones, and plenty of reasons to remove them. Ergo, they go.

	16-09-2005 19:57									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Hell, who even needs the 1st Amendment? This is unconstitutional on the grounds there is no power in the Constitution authorising Congress to make this daily request of our children!

I thought it was local school boards, authorized by state govts, that made the request, not Congress.

	16-09-2005 20:00									#44
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom James Madison letter to Edward Livingston, 10th July 1822 Clearly a lot water has passed over the Bush since then... So if you're a monotheist, hooray for you. If, on the other hand, you profess no religious belief, or are a polytheist, then too bad, you're on your own. One nation, under the thumb.

So says someone from a nation where the Church of England is still officially recognized.

The pledge in its current form may or may not be consitutional. Im not a constitutional lawyer. But its certainly been around before Bush. And the ceremonial deism goes back a very long way.

I guess some folks cant see past USA bashing, or Bush bashing.

	16-09-2005 20:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Well do you trust in God? Has our money made you a Christian?

Why would it? - all it says is "In God we trust"

cough, cough.

	16-09-2005 20:08									#46
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Dinodoc - would you be opposed to ceremonially saying "...under Baron Samedi?" He is a legitimate deity (or spirit actually) as recognized by Vodoun. How about under Brahma, we have numerous Americans of Indian ancestry. If you cannot interchange them, and those supporting it would refuse to support it, it doesn't pass the smell test (But THAT'S DIFFERENT). Sadly, the ceremonial deism test is probably going to get past our 100% Judeo-Christian SCOTUS. Do you see any conflict of interest?

hmm, baron samedi? lord sabbath, I suppose? interesting.

Wouldnt the parallel be pledging to Jesus Christ, or to Adonai eloheinu, or to God the Father? God in English is used generically, by most. Muslims use it in place of Allah, Hindus use God or godhead IIUC.


I can see where polytheists would have a problem (though couldnt they insert an "s" - one nation under gods?)

	16-09-2005 20:11									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The government is instructing children to stand and pledge allegiance to its god(s) with our money. We are coerced into paying for the state's attempt to convert our children, and we are coerced into using those public schools where our children are coerced into pledging allegiance to the state's god(s). That all happens before our children even enter the school to be coerced into taking the pledge. Still dont see the coercion? Hell, who even needs the 1st Amendment? This is unconstitutional on the grounds there is no power in the Constitution authorising Congress to make this daily request of our children!

Hows this for coercion then. I used to send my kid to a Jewish day school, where she said the pledge with under God, and said a full jewish morning service at the beginning of the day as well. We took her out, at least in part because of the expense. But have to pay taxes to support the public schools whether I send her to them or not. If youre against coercion, shouldnt you support vouchers that can be used for private religious schools?

	16-09-2005 20:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom James Madison letter to Edward Livingston, 10th July 1822 Clearly a lot water has passed over the Bush since then... So if you're a monotheist, hooray for you. If, on the other hand, you profess no religious belief, or are a polytheist, then too bad, you're on your own. One nation, under the thumb.

"The Church of England plans to raise millions of pounds to create an extra 100 secondary schools over the next seven to eight years, as the government prepares to increase its subsidy for church-sponsored schools.
Under its plans to revitalise secondary education in England, the government has promised to cut the amount religious organisations must contribute towards a school's capital costs from 15% to 10%, freeing funds for extra places.


But secular organisations have criticised the move, saying it will lead to a more splintered and fragmented society.

The Church of England currently has 4,540 state primary schools, but just 204 secondaries - with some getting 160 applications for every 100 places. "

	16-09-2005 20:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Hows this for coercion then. I used to send my kid to a Jewish day school, where she said the pledge with under God, and said a full jewish morning service at the beginning of the day as well. We took her out, at least in part because of the expense. But have to pay taxes to support the public schools whether I send her to them or not. If youre against coercion, shouldnt you support vouchers that can be used for private religious schools?

Uh, you do realize who you're talking to, right?

	16-09-2005 20:17									#50
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oh is berzerker a libertarian or something? I avoid the cap vs com vs libertarian threads here, i wasnt sure.

	16-09-2005 20:33									#51
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greeks tend to think of themselves as a highly patriotic bunch of people but our children dont sing the national anthem every morning

i believe we used to have such a thing only during the junta....

	16-09-2005 22:12									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG greeks tend to think of themselves as a highly patriotic bunch of people but our children dont sing the national anthem every morning i believe we used to have such a thing only during the junta....

Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

	16-09-2005 22:20									#53
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

No, they do the opposite, expell minorites.

	16-09-2005 22:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

The US has far less immigration per capita (by a factor of 2) than either Canada or Australia, yet we don't feel the need to have our kids recite ritualistic nationalist idol-worship every day...

	16-09-2005 22:32									#55
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The US has far less immigration per capita (by a factor of 2) than either Canada or Australia, yet we don't feel the need to have our kids recite ritualistic nationalist idol-worship every day...

Im sure you have your own methods of integration, that work for you. Ours work for us. Whats it matter to you? (See my new location description)

Oh, and good luck with your national unity thing.

	16-09-2005 22:41									#56
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"Quebec is already exceedingly generous toward private schools. They receive public funds equivalent to 60 per cent of the per-student funding available to public schools. Mr. Charest and Education Minister Pierre Reid decided last month to raise the level to 100 per cent for the secular component of private Jewish schools, at a potential cost of $10-million, as long as a public board agreed to engage in cultural exchange programs with those schools. The Education Act makes provision for this. A couple of Greek private schools have enjoyed such an arrangement for years, and Mr. Charest said he was prepared to look at other such requests, case by case."

*drools with envy

	16-09-2005 22:43									#57
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Because it's doing more harm than good.

A healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to nationalism is positive

An environment where children daily pledge allegiance to a flag is more than a little bit cultish for my tastes.

	16-09-2005 22:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "Quebec is already exceedingly generous toward private schools. They receive public funds equivalent to 60 per cent of the per-student funding available to public schools. Mr. Charest and Education Minister Pierre Reid decided last month to raise the level to 100 per cent for the secular component of private Jewish schools, at a potential cost of $10-million, as long as a public board agreed to engage in cultural exchange programs with those schools. The Education Act makes provision for this. A couple of Greek private schools have enjoyed such an arrangement for years, and Mr. Charest said he was prepared to look at other such requests, case by case." *drools with envy

Fix your public schools first. Then when they're not shitholes you'd have to be afraid of sending your kids to you can ask for rebates from the state...

	16-09-2005 22:47									#59
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Have you successfully integrated millions of non-Greek immigrants?

for a start, we dont have our 1+ mil. albanians in ghetos....

	16-09-2005 22:48									#60
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by KrazyHorse

quote: Because it's doing more harm than good.

Oh, is this one of those the US invaded Iraq, so now everyone on the planet has the right to criticize every domestic thing in the US? Gotcha.

quote: A healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to nationalism is positive

Ditto for ANY ism.

quote: An environment where children daily pledge allegiance to a flag is more than a little bit cultish for my tastes.

I can tell you that the social studies education that POTM received both at jewish day school, and at preschool, encouraged debate and questioning. Not cultish at all. And she even has enough skepticism not to judge say, an entire educational system, based on a brief morning ceremony. A skepticism, and humility of judgement, I find strangely lacking in people who come from "environments" that theoretically encourage healthy skepicism.