18-09-2005 22:36									#31
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

First, you're applying your judgment to other people :nonono:
Second, you ignored the rest of my post.
Third, if Apple fails to provide compatibility measures to developers to keep programs functioning from 10.0 to 10.4, then Apple has failed and if they are there, but they don't educate their developers then they have partly failed. It can only benefit the user to have software working from 10.0 to 10.4, but no, that's not the way it is and it's a problem for Apple, because soon people won't accept that and start pirating their OS.

quote: Microsoft is also responsible for those evil people who won't make things that are compatible with Win 95...

Win 95 was 10 years ago. 10.2 was yesterday.

	18-09-2005 22:44									#32
	Support Apolyton

AFAIK, Apple is just like Microsoft, except it's products suck more.

	18-09-2005 22:52									#33
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Actually, that's not true. Actually the iPod is quite a good product, but actually Apple is customer whore.
The question is, do you bend down or not?

	18-09-2005 23:12									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Actually the iPod is quite a good product

Yeah, a MP3-player you can carry with you! Who would've thought of it before iPod?

	18-09-2005 23:12									#35
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hole in your argument big enough to drive a truck through.

I blame Apple -- where are the security updates for OS X 10.1?

Apple is just as guilty as the third party developers. In fact, the fact that they don't support older versions means developers don't have to.

They also have a very terrible policy of changing APIs between "minor" versions (ie, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4) which cause incompatibilities.

In any real OS, the API is frozen until the next major release. For MS, it only adds new functionality and function calls between versions so old applications still work as expected. Apple doesn't do the same thing, which means you have versioning nightmares.

	18-09-2005 23:14									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by VJ Yeah, a MP3-player you can carry with you! Who would've thought of it before iPod?

What a way to make a post that has nothing to do with what he said.

	18-09-2005 23:22									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: What a way to make a post that has nothing to do with what he said.

Huh?

I said that Apple isn't much better than MS. He said that iPod is a pretty good product. I implied with a hint of irony that iPod isn't really nothing more than a clone of competitor's designs which is marketed so insanely much that achieves a monopoly-status it can upkeep because it has it's own format standards, thus being pretty much like MS with OS's.

So what's your problem?

	18-09-2005 23:25									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

"the iPod is a clone of competitor's designs"
Probably that's why the iPod's design "sets the highwatermark".

edit: I don't know exactly the english phrase that is used to express what I wanted

	18-09-2005 23:29									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa First, you're applying your judgment to other people :nonono: Second, you ignored the rest of my post. Third, if Apple fails to provide compatibility measures to developers to keep programs functioning from 10.0 to 10.4, then Apple has failed and if they are there, but they don't educate their developers then they have partly failed. It can only benefit the user to have software working from 10.0 to 10.4, but no, that's not the way it is and it's a problem for Apple, because soon people won't accept that and start pirating their OS. Win 95 was 10 years ago. 10.2 was yesterday.

Yeah right...

That generally doesn't happen. Some programs won't function with 10.0, but the update to 10.1 was free.

Stuff generally works from one point release to the next. That's not what you said before. You complained that people would keep having to upgrade and that this was Apple's fault

Sorry, that dog don't hunt. It is the developers' problem and not Apple's.

	18-09-2005 23:30									#40
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Probably that's why the iPod's design "sets the highwatermark".

Quoting myself...

quote: Yeah, a MP3-player you can carry with you! Who would've thought of it before iPod?

...or perhaps you two didn't realise that they existed before you saw an iPod ad. Actually, that would explain a lot.

	18-09-2005 23:31									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I've had every version of OS X from the beginning. Each one was certainly worth the upgrade price. It's sad to see people suckered like this.

It's cost me about $2 a week. Oh noes!!

	18-09-2005 23:33									#42
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yeah right... That generally doesn't happen. Some programs won't function with 10.0, but the update to 10.1 was free. Stuff generally works from one point release to the next. That's not what you said before. You complained that people would keep having to upgrade and that this was Apple's fault Sorry, that dog don't hunt. It is the developers' problem and not Apple's.

It's Apple's problem -- no other OS vendor changes the kernel APIs between point releases, only Apple. That's what causes incompatibilities.

	18-09-2005 23:42									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Yeah right... That generally doesn't happen. Some programs won't function with 10.0, but the update to 10.1 was free. Stuff generally works from one point release to the next. That's not what you said before. You complained that people would keep having to upgrade and that this was Apple's fault.

For one they have to upgrade because of the unpatched security vulnerabilities as Asher has pointed out. Failing to fix security problems in Apple's products is not Apple's business?

quote: Sorry, that dog don't hunt. It is the developers' problem and not Apple's.

So you think it's okay that Apple rolls off all costs to their developers? Would you think this is friendly for developers? And in turn would you think this is friendly to users who have to pay higher prices, because of higher costs?

	19-09-2005 00:00									#44
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by VJ Quoting myself... ...or perhaps you two didn't realise that they existed before you saw an iPod ad. Actually, that would explain a lot.

You're not making sense. Let's do a rollup:

You asserted Apple is like MS, but it's products are more crap.
Well so, I brought up the iPod which was actually quite a good product.
--- so much for the understandable part ---
But then you replied that it's just a mp3 player ( - I didn't know you expected it to cook coffee? ) and further stated that the iPod is a clone of competitor's designs.

How can a "design of a product" be the clone of the "idea of the product" and _What is your point_??!?

	19-09-2005 00:02									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Actually, I don't really have I point after this:

quote: You asserted Apple is like MS, but it's products are more crap.

...so I'm just wasting our time here now. Sorry.

	19-09-2005 20:22									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Uh - Asher, while Microsoft definitely does not charge for the most recent service packs, and is doing a better job of supporting their obsolete OS's - their service packs don't make other people's programs not work. Do I need to post the most recent link, from the MS's own site, about the number of programs XP sp2 nukes?

	19-09-2005 21:59									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Uh - Asher, while Microsoft definitely does not charge for the most recent service packs, and is doing a better job of supporting their obsolete OS's - their service packs don't make other people's programs not work. Do I need to post the most recent link, from the MS's own site, about the number of programs XP sp2 nukes?

It's surprisingly minimal, compared to Apple's, and MS' was unavoidable. They needed to rearchitect components of the OS for security reasons, and programs who usually did not adhere to MS' Windows design guidelines occasionally run into incompatibilities.

Apple changes **** just for the hell of it.

	19-09-2005 22:37									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just for the hell of it? Um ... right. Look, I don't particularly have a dog in this fight, but in my experience, a company doesn't just change things "just for the hell of it."

A company's logic might be twisted, but it's there. Somewhere.

Gatekeeper

	19-09-2005 22:39									#49
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

My interpretation is there's no point in most of the stuff they change, they just like to be edgy and fresh. Their engineers also clearly don't give a rats ass about backwards compatibility like MS' did -- which is one reason Apple is a niche market today.

	19-09-2005 22:45									#50
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, I have to be honest: The seemingly continual updates to X is annoying, and is one reason I haven't upgraded my existing iMac or bought a new iMac. For a while there, it seemed like Apple was releasing an OS update every four to six months.

Hell, I'm still using 8.6 and it's been a good workhorse.

Gatekeeper

	19-09-2005 22:46									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Windows XP was a service update to Windows 2000.

Win2K = WinNT 5.0
WinXP = WinNT 5.1

It's true that Apple charges an arm and a leg for it's incrimental fixes, but so does MS.

This says nothing about whether or not Apple sucks in general though. Apple is a great concept twenty years ago, which has been poorly handled, surpassed, and kept alive only by a rabid fan base.

MS, on the other hand, stole its technology when it could get away with it, bought it when it got caught, and used an illegal business practices to create a monopoly which it has used to extend monopolies over other spheres of software.

LINUX doesn't work well yet, and may never.

BSD is too nerdy.

BeOS went out of business.

	19-09-2005 23:09									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Windows XP was a service update to Windows 2000. Win2K = WinNT 5.0 WinXP = WinNT 5.1 It's true that Apple charges an arm and a leg for it's incrimental fixes, but so does MS. This says nothing about whether or not Apple sucks in general though. Apple is a great concept twenty years ago, which has been poorly handled, surpassed, and kept alive only by a rabid fan base. MS, on the other hand, stole its technology when it could get away with it, bought it when it got caught, and used an illegal business practices to create a monopoly which it has used to extend monopolies over other spheres of software. LINUX doesn't work well yet, and may never. BSD is too nerdy. BeOS went out of business.

XP wasn't a "service update" to 2K. MS and Apple use different meanings for their versioning schemes. The "5.1/5.0" versioning refers to the kernel only.

	20-09-2005 01:00									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Umm, Asher, I believe many of your criticisms of Linux concern changes to "just the kernel." Methinks your protesting too much - and I must grant Che a very nice and succinct summarization, without name calling, of the currect state of OS's.

	20-09-2005 01:48									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Windows XP was a service update to Windows 2000. Win2K = WinNT 5.0 WinXP = WinNT 5.1 It's true that Apple charges an arm and a leg for it's incrimental fixes, but so does MS. This says nothing about whether or not Apple sucks in general though. Apple is a great concept twenty years ago, which has been poorly handled, surpassed, and kept alive only by a rabid fan base. MS, on the other hand, stole its technology when it could get away with it, bought it when it got caught, and used an illegal business practices to create a monopoly which it has used to extend monopolies over other spheres of software. LINUX doesn't work well yet, and may never. BSD is too nerdy. BeOS went out of business.

Not quite... There's more to Apple than mindless fans. Apple still has a strong feet in the DTP market. Unfortunately they seem more interested in consumer devices.

	20-09-2005 17:03									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Apple sux.

	20-09-2005 18:08									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: For one they have to upgrade because of the unpatched security vulnerabilities as Asher has pointed out. Failing to fix security problems in Apple's products is not Apple's business?

Apple's security updates are not limited to the latest version of the OS.

In any case, security is not really a problem on the virus and spyware free mac platform.

Windows is a poorly thought out joke that doesn't work properly. Try to do anything that requires multiple languages or rare non-roman characters on Windows... what a ****ing joke that is. I suppose that one could refuse to think that eating **** was a horrible thing, or at least maintain so in print. But the facts speak otherwise. Same goes for Windows. It's just silly.

As it stands, apart from the 10.0 to 10.1 to 10.2 updates (the central one of which was free to all users) Apple has been going along at an update every two years. The next one will be about 2 1/2 years after the intro of the current system.

Microsoft used to do that before they **** their pants and made a mess of Longshot or whatever it is called.

	20-09-2005 18:21									#57
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Apple sux.

	21-09-2005 03:56									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Just for the hell of it? Um ... right. Look, I don't particularly have a dog in this fight, but in my experience, a company doesn't just change things "just for the hell of it." A company's logic might be twisted, but it's there. Somewhere.

Actually, I don't think Apple's interface design studios have any rhyme or reason, just ADD. That's why they went from pinstripe to brushed metal to plastic to greyplastic in four years, and now have applications that don't have the same thematic consistency.

	21-09-2005 04:00									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Windows XP was a service update to Windows 2000. Win2K = WinNT 5.0 WinXP = WinNT 5.1 It's true that Apple charges an arm and a leg for it's incrimental fixes, but so does MS.

Yes and no. 5.0/5.1 is just the kernel; however, 2k/XP actually has at lot more than just the kernel. For instance, 2k was just another addition and improvement to the NT core; XP, however, merged a lot of the NT core with a lot of the 9x core, which is how you got the stability of NT with the compatibility of 9x.

It's a much larger change than the OS X updates; indeed, it's as much of a leap as OS 9 was to OS X. On the other hand, the incremental updates (SP1, SP2), which are tantamount to OS X 10.1, OS X 10.2, and so on, are free.

quote: BeOS went out of business.

Zeta's supposed to be carrying on the BeOS torch.

	21-09-2005 16:31									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: For one they have to upgrade because of the unpatched security vulnerabilities as Asher has pointed out. Failing to fix security problems in Apple's products is not Apple's business? Apple's security updates are not limited to the latest version of the OS. In any case, security is not really a problem on the virus and spyware free mac platform.

I don't think I have to address this point.... It's the same as security through obscurity, it's nice when it works, but once discovered you're screwed. And the day this happens is doomed to come.. Murphy's Law or Apple goes out of business, but I don't want to be responsible for yet another notch in the ADKC

quote: Windows is a poorly thought out joke that doesn't work properly. Try to do anything that requires multiple languages or rare non-roman characters on Windows... what a ****ing joke that is. I suppose that one could refuse to think that eating **** was a horrible thing, or at least maintain so in print. But the facts speak otherwise. Same goes for Windows. It's just silly.

That's strange, because I maintain a website in 5 languages - german, english, russian, spanish and chinese (I think it's the simplified one) - completely with Windows. SciTE (open source) is my editor of choice and it can do UTF-8 nicely. I also received a word doc containing english-chinese translations from china and could open it without problems.
OTOH, my parents had problems on the classic OS and MS Outlook Express receiving emails containing spanish text (I don't know the coding)... all the accentuated characters got lost, so I made the very opposite experience than you described. Most probably the truth is somewhere in between.