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Bereta_Eder
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when i was young i had the wits to be a bouzouki for 4 quids and the only song that i could play was **** the rich and the ira (tax agency)
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Bereta_Eder
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well of course it is forcefully an addaptation
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aneeshm
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Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:07
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First - give me the sources . I have never , and will never , advocate caste discrimination . I said that it was originally meant as a system of classification , and that it got perverted over time . I have no illusions of the horror of casteist discrimination , nor do I view it "rosily" , as you suggest . It is still , however , by no means a "defining feature" of Hinduism . The way it exists in the villages is horrible - but you accuse me of being one of the oppressors , thereby trying to discredit me . As I said , ad homimen . Go troll someone else - I am immune to this .
Now you need to add strawman to the list of fallacies you committed , by just saying that I defended the caste system . I did not - I stated that it was , originally , merely a system of classification , which later became stratified . And forget not that this stratification was fought by later reformers like the Adi Shankara ( who is considered one of the luminaries of Hinduism ) , Swami Vivekanand ( who told the Brahmins that the concept of purity they must aspire to was internal and not external ) , and Gandhji ( who called the Dalits the Hairjans , or the "People of God" ) .
Again - how many times have I to repeat that caste discrimination is now illegal , and that the majority of governmental jobs are reserved for the previously oppressed castes ? And by the way - higher castes enjoy no governmental protection .
As for Bali :
You have provided proof that Hinduism spread to Indonesia . I asked for proof that this expansion was violent . You have given none of that .
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BeBro
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of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
i must say this has to be the best threadjack on poly in a while. The original antiamierican troll has been diverted into a debate about Christianity and Hinduism.
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At one point I feared it would become another capitalism vs. communism thread....
aneeshm, I do not doubt what you told me about your muslim friend, it is just that I made some experiences that are completely different from those you described. So obviously some muslims are more traditional (or fundamentalistic if you will) towards their own religion than others. I saw the difference quite strongly when meeting a guy from Kuwait and his wife when I visited Jordan, who were very much "modern" like we are, esp. in the way like they treated eachother, or how the woman behaved. That was totally different from the usual cliche that the women wear head scarfs and are all opressed there. Of course, I've seen others which indeed fit into that cliche, no doubt. But it is still interesting that some can accept modernity relatively easy, while others can't, and while another part may be somewhere in between.
Here in Germany you can see the same differences everyday - some of the many Turkish immigrants we have are more progressive than others, some may even support aggressive Muslim fundies while others simply don't care about them.
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Bereta_Eder
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islam is basically a system of law.
islamism will hold back any society.
now moamethanism would have overtaken the US, many "whities" would go muslim if there was not the 11/9. it is simpler thatn the trinity of christanism. thats why the barbars had initially accepted the sect of the aryan untill they smartened up with contact with the civilized and accepted the triadity of the church
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Bereta_Eder
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AH! wwhich makes me think. maybe protestantism is actually a return of the barbarians back to their roots of simplicity. doesnt protestantism focus only at jesus? same with the sect of the aryans. christianity for the dummies if you will!!!
man i have to give my brains to science
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by aneeshm
First - give me the sources . |
i've given you the links, now what more do you need?
quote:
I did not - I stated that it was , originally , merely a system of classification , which later became stratified . And forget not that this stratification was fought by later reformers like the Adi Shankara ( who is considered one of the luminaries of Hinduism ) , Swami Vivekanand ( who told the Brahmins that the concept of purity they must aspire to was internal and not external ) , and Gandhji ( who called the Dalits the Hairjans , or the "People of God" ) . |
and yet despite all the fine things these 'luminaries' said the caste system is firmly in place and is a source of massive human rights abuses, how can this be!?! 
quote:
Again - how many times have I to repeat that caste discrimination is now illegal , and that the majority of governmental jobs are reserved for the previously oppressed castes ? And by the way - higher castes enjoy no governmental protection . |
bullshit. the links i provided tell a very different story. they say that despite all the constitution says that there is massive discrimination and abuse based on the caste system, read them, if you want i can provide a lot of further reading.
the point here is that you have called everyone else barbarians, and yet you defend a religion which has at its heart a system which denies hundreds of millions of people the most basic of rights on a daily basis. so if we're barbarians, then what does that make you?
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Bereta_Eder
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gays should adopt ancient hellenic religions. none of that judaic ascetic crap
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Bereta_Eder
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i thought only amadeus rocked
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aneeshm
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Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
At one point I feared it would become another capitalism vs. communism thread....
aneeshm, I do not doubt what you told me about your muslim friend, it is just that I made some experiences that are completely different from those you described. So obviously some muslims are more traditional (or fundamentalistic if you will) towards their own religion than others. I saw the difference quite strongly when meeting a guy from Kuwait and his wife when I visited Jordan, who were very much "modern" like we are, esp. in the way like they treated eachother, or how the woman behaved. That was totally different from the usual cliche that the women wear head scarfs and are all opressed there. Of course, I've seen others which indeed fit into that cliche, no doubt. But it is still interesting that some can accept modernity relatively easy, while others can't, and while another part may be somewhere in between.
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My friend is one of the more relatively "modern" ones . But fighting the customs of your community is very hard on a person . It is true that Muslims can be modern , but my point is that Islam cannot .
quote:
Here in Germany you can see the same differences everyday - some of the many Turkish immigrants we have are more progressive than others, some may even support aggressive Muslim fundies while others simply don't care about them.
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Remember the above point - I attack the religion , not the follower of the religion .
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aneeshm
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Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
aneeshm:
If your goals and ideals are apart from all religions as a secular, then the critiques you level against Christianity in particular seem rather puzzling. Christians are the ones who have been a vast minority in India, compared to the Hindus and Muslims and even the Sikhs, yet that they manage to provoke such a response from the others tells me that there is something different about Christianity that sets it aside from the other religions.
Yes, you mention Christianity's claim to offer the path to God. What I fail to see is why that claim can be said to be problematic? Shouldn't a religion that believes it has the truth claim this? |
The problem arises when they not only claim that Christianity is the way to God , but it is also the only way to god , and that all others ( including the local religion , whatever it be ) is evil , when it tries to destroy local customs and traditons by vilifying them , and by not defeating the prevailing intellectual ideology in open debate before appealing the the masses , when it tries the tactics I mentioned in order to convert people .
Remember - I attack Christianity as long as it claims to be the only true way , but I leave Christians alone . I do not judge people on the basis of their religion .
I have nothing against people , only against ideas .
@ C0ckney
Please provide proof that the spread of Hinduism to Indonesia was violent .
Last edited by aneeshm on 21-09-2005 at 21:15
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aneeshm
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Indore , Madhya Pradesh
Jul 2001
time: 11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
and yet despite all the fine things these 'luminaries' said the caste system is firmly in place and is a source of massive human rights abuses, how can this be!?!
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This can be because people are averse to change .
quote:
bullshit. the links i provided tell a very different story. they say that despite all the constitution says that there is massive discrimination and abuse based on the caste system, read them, if you want i can provide a lot of further reading.
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And I admitted that - but I also said that it is restricted mostly to the villages . I know very well the abuses of the caste system - but I never defended it as it is . I repeat that it originated as a system of classification . Can't you distinguish between history and the present ?
quote:
the point here is that you have called everyone else barbarians, and yet you defend a religion which has at its heart a system which denies hundreds of millions of people the most basic of rights on a daily basis. so if we're barbarians, then what does that make you?
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I deny that casteism is the heart of Hinduism . This is where you put words into my mouth , or make wrong assumptions . The caste system was stratified later , as religion became more ritualised . It was not , and should not be , anything more than a system of classification based on occupation . Got that ?
And anyway - you've proved my point for me , in a fashion - you used tactics such as trying to discredit me , trying to insinuate that I had something to gain from this discussion and that therefore should not be listened to , used provocative imagery , and created strawmen and put words in my mouth . You also dragged down the level of debate by overusing sarcasm . That is barbarism when it comes to debate . I may here make clear that I attack your tactics , and not you personally .
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:37
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quote:
...you used tactics such as trying to discredit me... |
in all fairness, i didn't have to try that hard.
quote:
And I admitted that - but I also said that it is restricted mostly to the villages . I know very well the abuses of the caste system - but I never defended it as it is . I repeat that it originated as a system of classification . Can't you distinguish between history and the present ?
I deny that casteism is the heart of Hinduism . This is where you put words into my mouth , or make wrong assumptions . The caste system was stratified later , as religion became more ritualised . It was not , and should not be , anything more than a system of classification based on occupation . Got that ? |
'casteism' has throughout india's history been very important, to deny that is rather like denying the sky is blue. but it's refreshing to hear that you want to talk about the present. so here how the caste system TODAY affects people.
from the UNESCO report 'india's hidden apartheid' which i linked to earlier -
quote:
More than 160 million people, a sixth of India’s population, continue to bear the burden of a 2,000-year old caste system sanctioned by Hindu theology, which locks people into a rigid role by virtue of their birth.
Though the term “untouchables” was abolished in 1950 under India’s constitution, the “oppressed people” or Dalits as they are now referred to, continue to be discriminated against. They are denied access to land, forced to work in humiliating and degrading conditions and are routinely abused by the police and upper-caste groups, which enjoy the state’s protection. |
sorry, what was that about barbarism...?
and the brahmins do alright out of the caste system too
quote:
Brahmins are 3.5% of the population in India, but hold 78% of judicial positions and around 50% of parliamentary seats. |
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21-09-2005 19:44
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