26-07-1999 19:58									#91
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Moscow Messenger, 26th July.
The Communist Govt. has been swiftly overhauled as it's short reign that brought a temporary peace to a nation disrupted by the evil AI was deemed too slow and highly corruptable to espionage threats that were sure to come.
A Russian diplomat recently attempted a foolhardy mission to convert a city of the oversized Croats/Aztecs. The move has caused controversy throughout the Russian cabinet, as it was ill advised and came before proper preparations to maintain the city as a Russian one. To my Allies the Russian PM has today issued a formal apology for his over zealous actions. Although intended to disrupt the Aztec nations continued expanse, it achieved little more than an irratation to the wise and cunning SF. However, it achieved a minor diversion for English forces who took and succesfully held Rome, and scuppered a strategic navy base held by the Aztecs. Defenders of the city of Kraigugawa report that two Aztec ironclads were recently destroyed after a revenge attack, and would like to remind SF of the beauty of a well placed Coastal Fortress.

It is a minor victory that the powergraph indicates a sharp drop in Aztec influence, and it is reassuring to see that our much admired friend and neighbours the Japenese are catching him in this respect.

I am disturbed at the Aztecs decision to declare war against the Japenese, as although Allied to both myself and the English, played no part in the attempted containment of the dominant world force. A war between these two superpowers would be a bloody one, and I'm not too sure I want to be involved.

We are also aware of the Chinese's puppet like status, who hide under the Aztec shadow, and ask of them to cede the ill placed city that threatens the honourable Viking borders.

An interesting detail has recently been brought to my attention by my military advisor. Over 4 millenia have passed and my forever moderning army has yet to lose a single troop in combat. A great achievement, possibly due to my years of neutrality that i wish I could now re-enter.

Commercial news.
Although recent trading has been disatrously slow, plans have been in the pipelines for several caravans to spread trade routes throughout the world, the benefits of which will hopefully be recieved soon. There are 2 heading for Chinese and Viking cities, and a deal has been struck with the Merchant Milo so that more will be heading the Vikings way soon. Too long has trade been neglected, and hopefully things will start to look up.

Post Script.
I may be forced to return leadership to Pastieman the Elder for a few turns as he is outraged at my recent attack on the Aztecs.
I would very much like to make a cease-fire with the Aztecs, and have a proposal that they my find interesting.

	27-07-1999 00:24									#92
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The New English Times: issue 4

WAR DECLARED ON AZTECS!
What some people feared has finally happened: "WAR!". Could it have been prevented? Who knows, it was clear that the Aztec expansion in South America and Europe was a going concern for all nations. Add to that the expansion of the Chinese to the east of the Aztec empire and we have a very dangerous combination. The Chinese feeling safe in their support by the Aztecs started to boss their smaller neighbours the Sioux and Vikings around. By 'accidently' placing troops and cities close to the border. The Aztecs had already started making demands on the English again while it was still ruled by the notorious but secretive leader only known as AI. It became clear that the English as their closest neighbour had to take a stronger stance.

Our present leader CapTVK had the foresight of preparing forces and transporting them to
positions were they could act quickly and effectively. The JTF kindly protected one of our ships when it began it's journey to S.America so that it could build a position from which to strike. CapTVK praised the troops in an invigorating speech as the troops prepared: "England expects every man to do his duty..." he noted at the end.
When the Aztec(Croatian) leader SF returned and had the presumption to ask if the Aztecs
could borrow our national wonder SoL we made a final proprosal: "return Rome to England".
The Answer we received was a very clear "NO!" and the wheels of destiny were set in motion. Were they will stop is unknown but let it be known that the English are resolute in their resolve to stop Aztec(Croatian) expansionism...

Alliance between Aztecs and Chinese revealed
What was already suspected by some informers in our recent article has been proved correct:
'there was a secret alliance between the Aztecs and Chinese'. The Chinese have already started to openly support the Aztecs by giving funds to support their covert actions abroad.


AZTECS DECLARE WAR ON JAPAN!
When it became apparent that the Aztecs were not going to stop their expansionistic
masterplan in a bilateral alliance with the Chinese and were not ready to make concessions to prevent the balance of power tilting too towards them the diplomatic relations with the Russians and the JTF turned sour. After the English declared war on the Aztecs the Aztec declared war on Japan and accused them of using the English as their running boys Japan quickly used his own troops in S.America.

Russia quickly followed suit by declaring war on the Aztecs by striking one of their cities.


JTF PROVIDES NAVAL SUPPORT
The JTF has promised to provide naval support for the English fleet. This is a welcome sign of support as the battle for control of the Mediterranean sea continues.

--------------------------
News from the front
--------------------------
Fierce battles in the Mediterranean sea!
Several engagements with the Aztec(Croatian) navy have taken place near the African coast
and Turkey. Heavy losses have been reported on both sides but English naval vessels have been able to isolate the port of Istanbul.

Rome captured!
In a daring commando raid by a diplomat with help of the English citizens in Rome the city is under English control once again.

Battle for Istanbul continues
The fight for control of Istanbul continues as the city changes control for the English and back to the Aztecs again with a quick bribe by an Aztec diplomat.

English troops hold out in Pyrenees mountains
English troops dig in as Aztec(Croatian) artillery units try to uproot them, they have been unsuccesful.

Daring Russian raid in Scandinavia
In a surprise raid Russian forces captured a coastal city in Scandinavia. The city was
retaken by a Aztec(Croatian) diplomat who bribed one of the musketeers and quickly sneaked back into the city. The raid was not in vain however, it proves that the Aztecs border in Northern Europe can also be breached.

Fighting continues in S.America
The battle in S.america is far different one then in Europe. Heavy fighting is going on in the Amazon as the JTF plus remaining English forces and the Aztecs vie for control of important harbours.


--------------------------
Foreign Affairs
--------------------------
Vikings declare neutrality
The Viking foreign has stated to remain neutral in the current although they express
concerns at recent actions by the Chinese close to the border. Relations between the Vikings and English remain good.

Sioux leader has gone missing!
After recent attempts by our ambassador to reach the well known president Colon of the Sioux he discovered that the control of the nation is now in the hands of a bureaucratic AI puppetregime! On the fate of the Sioux leader we can only hope as efforts to locate him have failed...

	27-07-1999 01:59									#93
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Why has no one told to me that this session would take place, if I may know ?

	27-07-1999 02:18									#94
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to shogun grau geist:

you really think i have to say anything more after that backstabbing you just did?
well if you insist:

-after dozen of turns played by ai,i was back finding my civ all screwed up.
-we made peace before eyes of the world.
-very next turn i was simultaneously attacked by two of your vasals in scandinavia and italy.
-guess what? after you moved your 2 dragoons into my south american city radius you ceded them to english. they took that city with dragoons. i bribed it back when was my turn but dragoons was ceded back to you again. that mean 2 users had control on same units in same turn. am not gonna tell you about what do i think about switching wonders,but switching units to get double movement i certainly don't like. let me know if you want to play that way.

oh i almost forgot...you've choosed the day of backstabbing when my sioux ally was under ai. well,i decided to put some more spice to whole thing and find a new permanent replacement of our eternal ally. theres no more point of diplomacy here. you're the one who turned this game into bloodlust and i will certainly avoid any future negotiations with you. soon...you'll must to go into democracy,and under democracy only i can afford war.

to russian president pastieman:

i doubt you may offer me something after what you just did. anyway,when i compare your first betrayal with 3rd of japanese i think i can hear your proposal.

to japanese high priest captvk:

when your troops bribed anarchist stronghold rome,you continued your invasion to the north. counteroffensive in progress. we shall met in london.

so,in short this is a same bloodlust game i've played a ton. am not complaining - just concluding. however...4 against 2 aren't very fair odds,so i think i have rights to activate my other ally in this particular matter.

see you all on saturday

sf

	28-07-1999 00:10									#95
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SF, could you at least try to act the part? By breaking up the act your spoiling the game, this thread and the mood for everybody...

I'm in this game for the fun of it and if the only way you're enjoying the game is when you start replacing subs ,who do exactly what you say, be my guest. You're welcome to the English too because I'm not in the mood for a 'bloodlust' game as you seem to put it so gently...

	28-07-1999 00:10									#96
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I do not have time right now to write in character newspaper posts, they will come later. However I would like to respond to the out of character accusations by SmarFart.
I was going give these facts in character, and I will later, but a few of things need to be cleared.

The Aztec AI attacked the Japanese so I responded to the attacks. I could not afford to sit idly by since I shared many borders with the Aztecs. I made peace with you SF even though I lost much to the computer, however, I had been carrying out a campaign against the computer attacks in South America in particular. CAP with Fundamentalism had many units and I needed them, I had fast ships, and thus I began to transport these units to South America. The session ended and you arrived the next session.
That session the English went to war and I had to give him the units he had given to me to help me out, I did it stupidly and blundered in doing so. Fine, You decared war on Japanese, You have made this a bloodlust game. (The US and Soviet Union never fought directly with each other, The US fought Vietnam, Russians supported them, Russians fought Afghanistan the US supported them, etc.) Where was your outrage? You immediately went to War, probably thinking me an easy kill, wrong again.

As for two moves, you are being ridiculous, If I hand over control of his units back to him surely they will get to move under his control, this is unavoidable. You bribed the city he took and you got those units, I bribed the single surviving Dragoon back from you and it captured/destroyed your city. its as simple as that, no conspiracy. He does not have any units left in South America even if he wanted to give them back to me because you bribed or killed them all. Again the Dragoon that destroyed your city was your own, that I bribed with your own diplomat that I bribed because you didn't cover them up to prevent the bribe. Simple as that. So stop your groaning, if you didn't want to get involved in a war with three other Civilizations you should have been more Diplomatic. Remember you decided to get Japanese involved by declaring War on me. It looks already like you have one opportunity to make peace with the Russians, you figure it out.

They are playing to have fun as I am, and we all practice our own free will.
I do not have control over their brains, or control them like puppets I am in the US, Pastie the UK and CAP the Netherlands. If Cap or Pastie decided to make war or peace it is because they decided to make war or peace, the same goes for me I decide.

The English appear to have objectives and are boxed in by you and I, therefore they are fighting for more living space, a world reknown reason for war. You have the #1 civilization and must deal with the fact that everyone else is jealous of your position. The Russians seemed to have made a miscalculation, though I'm not one to argue because it broke up the mundane play we had been getting into. I admit things have heated up a bit, but we are not at Bloodlust level here, we are two or three turns into a war!

If you want to turn this into a Bloodlust game go ahead and take your save and find some other group to play with, And don't bother to show up on Saturday. However if you have the clarity to recognize this new situation and see it as an opportunity to excercise Your skills at diplomacy, then by all means I look forward to playing with you on Saturday, Lets keep this GAME in the Character and Spirit we started it.

Finally, I don't claim to be at all the expert on Diplomacy, however I know and it is OBVIOUS that you supplied the Chinese with the Diplomat used to steal technology from Nagasaki. Did I immediately declare war on you and the chinese, refusing to talk to you or Matt during the game. NO, but you immediately say you are breaking off relations and refuse to talk with Russians, English, and Japanese and then declare war. I'm sorry but your dealings with that situation did not involve a drop of the Diplomacy I saw you exibit at the beginning of this game.

Please lets all get in Character, and figure out during game play how to handle the situation we have thrust ourselves into. We have created an imaginary world that mirrors our own, perhaps we could actually apply what we know. War is inevitable to human existance: One society gets a little crowded, sees its neighbor living comfortably with room to spare, The English want to grow and expand as much as the Croats, but haven't the room. Meanwhile the Croats leave a good sized portion of their claimed territory untouched for thousands of years, wasting away, unsettled. You put yourself in the English shoes and you figure out what you would do.

SF, you were taken advantage of in your time of Anarchy, what respectable minor power would not take advantage of a situation where the major power is in turmoil, unable to respond unable to return the fight. Empires do not last forever, Alexander the Great's Empire broke apart upon his death, The Ottoman Empire slowly diminished as it was picked at by vultures waiting on the side and by corruption inside. The Mongols, Romans, Carthaginians, the Holy Roman Empire, and the list goes on and on. Lets play the game and hopefully you will accept the challenge to discover the many facets you could posssibly use to overcome the situation you are in, besides calling for a Jihad!

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited July 27, 1999).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited July 27, 1999).]</font>

	28-07-1999 07:16									#97
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Gentlemen, GENTLEMEN!!

Personally & speaking for the Vikings, I think it great(!) that U'll are going at each others' throats, units, & civ's... in or out of "character". Keep it up & me or the Sioux will be the eventual winners. We would love that!

I do not know where this will all end, but I do NOT believe this is the beginning of the end. Few times in world history did a war end in total annilation of a complete civ. The beauty of this "dipolmacy" contest is EXACTLY what we are seeing... communications, the swaying of world opinion as we are witnessing here. Plus this has been brewing for centuries, on this planet we all compete for; the means to the end, "balancing of power". This is what it is all about.

Dear S'Fart, it was only a matter of time before the #1 power on the planet became the object of attacks: military, verbal, dipolmatic, & whatever other means were available to the lesser powers... particularily those that have suffered at the expansion of the big power(s).
Congratulations! I wish it were me!
Nearly every civ likes or at least doesn't have a prob with, the Vikings. Why? Because we're the smallest civ on the planet & we're downunder by ourselves. Great! Every1 loves a loser in this game.

I just finished losing, more precisely finishing 3rd, after 1st= human(a GIRL no less), & 2nd= AI Persians(!). It was a tremendous game, going on since January because the 4(5?) humans that started agreed up front that it would be what we here are calling a "diplo" game & we wanted to end it by the first to A-Cent. Despite those conditions up front & just as here, half way thru we had to gang up on the civ that was growing by leaps & bounds by neglecting to have defenders in cities & grabbing every undeveloped square he could. But guess what!? He didn't win, nor did those of us that took him down a notch or 2... the girl that stayed neutral won! But she couldn't have if we hadn't balanced the power & forced him to play "honest". And the war didn't end with the-last-man-standing. We mutually realized after several centuries of war, that if we didn't stop none of us warring civ's would stand a chance of winning if we didn't come to a negoiated settlement. Which we did, after a war that swept across 3 continents & destoryed doz's of units & city improvements (it was great stuff!). By stopping & rebuilding & former enemies cooperating, we almost won it! My spaceship would have arrived 4 turns after hers... unless of course the FINAL war to knock HER out (since SHE had become the obvious world leader) had succeeded & her spaceship destoryed in route.

So the point is; if U are ALL MAN enuf to take the heat & use cool heads when required (or forced) to, this can be that same sort of fantastic ever-changing, ever-challenging competition!! Decided, as good ol' John B put it, by negotiations... sometimes thru writing, sometimes thru gold, & other times at the point of a bayonet. All the same ends, just means at different times to accomplish the that end.

To ALL U major combatants & messagers of the world leaders, a reminder; the balance of power is now in the hands of the non-aligned Vikings & Sioux. We watch & read with great interest the fortunes of war & the persuasiveness of your arguments... all the while keeping an eye on the ALL IMPORTANT "Balance of Power".
We ernestly hope that all U MEN will keep your eyes on the ultimate goal & understand that to achieve it will require equal measures of boldness & humility. Lest we all smash your ego & civ's to pieces!

That is all.

PS: Consul Colon... the session was announced to all= 14:00EDT = 19:00GMT = 20:00Western Eur Time; it was, is, & will always be the same time since this whole match was started under the posting "a Saturday Dipolmatic game". Any other time / session is a bonus to us all.

	28-07-1999 07:39									#98
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In That Case we are coming to get you next Ken !!

	28-07-1999 14:41									#99
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Ken, really, no one has told me about the time that was scheduled. And I don't see it in this thread either.

	28-07-1999 17:45									#100
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Calm down boys.
Although a lot of what GG and Milo says is true, I really do not think there is any need to tell SF to up and pack.
Talk, however, is to me the main issue. A grave error was made on my part, which was quickly remedied by SF, so technically apart from a wounded pride that I held his city for half a turn, no great loss was suffered.
War is enivitable, but personally I'm inspired by Ken, and hey man, give peace a chance! The war did liven up the game abit, and was started at my end by jeaolosy and ill-conceived opportunism.
GG does not control me, and I know for a fact he doesn't control the Cap. I do have a lot of respect for him however, as he has been a helpful ally and has taken the time to communicate. Therefore I'd say he possibly IS one of the best diplomats I've seen.
Anyway, lets enjoy ourselves, communicate more, and on occaision have a jolly good barney if you wish. But our ultimate goal is peaceful and enlightened, the colonization of AC.

	29-07-1999 07:26									#101
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And that makes 100, Time to throw out the old and on to the new, Thread that is.. CLOSE PLEASE

	31-07-1999 22:25									#102
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101 hehehe

	04-10-1999 01:34									#103
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*Bump* for review, makes good reading actually

	09-10-1999 20:08									#104
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Yes, it's a good idea to keep posting messages on important threads like this, especially as the game is still in progress. I have just reread this thread and what an epic it is.

	09-10-1999 23:20									#105
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Good point & thanks for remembering.

Let's all hope that Aployton has excellent backup's & archives!

It has been/is an "epic". We've learned alot about MP; balancing out power & "tricks" for a more "realistic" world of civ growing, not just civ crushing. It is particularily satisfying to those of us that are builders 1st & warrior 2nd. So much of the short-game "conventional widsom" falls by the wayside in the long run.

It's been a good experience overall... save the few techno glitches that periodically plague the venue. Tho here too, we'v learned a # of ways to avoid/minmize the impact.

Wish we could all get together more than once a week; seems it will be the next millenium before some1 gets to Alpha-Cent. The US-Europe time diff does make it difficult to schedule times.

Notwithstanding the above, there are several of us that wish to start another, perhaps on Sundays. You of course would be 1 of the first choices to join us.

All interested see the new thread i'm will start momentarily.

	27-01-2000 23:01									#106
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*Bumped*

An what a game this was. Makes me go all soggy for the old days

	28-05-2000 23:35									#107
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A good *bump* and part-1 is also back to the top. It really was one hell of a game...

	19-03-2001 04:11									#108
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Well, time to bump this thread again as a reminder of what diplogames are actually about.

	19-03-2001 04:59									#109
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note: he's not happy about the Diplogame we were trying to play today

	20-03-2001 10:59									#110
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Since I am a huge fan of diplogames (and am involved in one of my own which I intend on finishing) I am going to read this thread and comment because I like to shove my nose into business that is not necessarily my own.

So I'll have my thoughts later, but I am vaguely familiar with this game and realize it was quite the contest.