20-05-1999 09:50									#31
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Maybe techs of different categories should be researched in different ways. Your Barracks could produce Military techs, your Entertainers cultural techs and so on. Most techs would still have prerequisites from other fields - your military wouldn't be able to research musketeers before your scientists have invented gunpowder.

	20-05-1999 09:27									#32
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Octopus: Good idea, bad implimentation. I reconfigured the game so that 3+ food would appear after you got Biogenetics, instead of genesplicing.

But remember, CivII penalised Despotism with a -50% to resource gathering. While SMAC's limit was far too harsh and took too long to lift, there is a place for something like this.

Call it efficency, and make it a global social setting.

	20-05-1999 10:29									#33
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quote: I must agree that I don't see the need for a lose "prereq point" system. Just use Boolean logic with about 4 fields for techs to be entered

It's the same thing, just with a mathematical codification rather than a logical one. The main reason I would want a point system instead of a logical one is that a logical system doesn't allow different levels of influence between techs. With a boolean system, you could say that x and y are close to z, but you couldn't say that y is closer to z than x is. So, while you can get different paths to the same tech using boolean logic, you can't enforce a preferred path (for instance, while you can develop a crossbow from a spear and a sling, it's easier to develop it from the longbow.)

	20-05-1999 10:41									#34
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quote: What are people's feelings on the resource gathering limits linked to techs that were implemented in SMAC?

I kind of like how it was done. It added a little more meaning to advancing tech, but wasn't overly restrictive.

	20-05-1999 10:43									#35
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In all the tech stuff, you shouldn't forget the most fun thing about tech in CivII - those difficult choices between two equally attractive and much needed options.

Any system that lessens this (like the blind tech in SMAC) should probably be dismissed. CivIII is about fun, and the constant need to make difficult choices (and thereby get the right option!) is one of the main reasons that the civ games are so addictive. They maintain the tension all the way through, creating a sense of urgency that other games (RTS included) all lack.

Please do not lose sight of this when planning complicated technology trees - sometimes being able to choose is a GOOD thing.

Shining1

	20-05-1999 10:59									#36
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(glad we can use HTML, those 'quote' things were ugly.)
Bell writes:
So, while you can get different paths to the same tech using boolean logic, you can't enforce a preferred path (for instance, while you can develop a crossbow from a spear and a sling, it's easier to develop it from the longbow.)

Actually, upon further thought (where's my coffee!), you can, so really we're talking about the same concept with different words.

Goal: Crossbow
Prereq: {Longbow AND Compound Bow} OR {{spear AND sling} AND Longbow} OR {{spear AND sling} AND Compound Bow}

Goal: Crossbow--requires 4 Prereq points
Prereqs: Longbow (2pts), Compound Bow (2pts), Spear (1pt), Sling (1pt).

I think the advantage of using points is that you can get points from sources other than actual techs (reverse engineering, diplomacy, whatever) and that would be hard to integrate into a boolean system.

Yes, they would require quite a few techs, but I don't think it would be an unmanagable number. Remember, this system requires parallel research, so that reduces some of the micromanagement (although I'd also like to see 'research queues' that function like production queues.) Also, like I mentioned before and think is absolutely critical no matter what system we end up with, a good tech tree viewer would take care of some of the complexity.

[This message has been edited by Bell (edited May 20, 1999).]

	20-05-1999 17:22									#37
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On the Music idea: Fundamentally sound, but remember much of today's music is blamed and in fact any new music at it's given time in history has been considered subversive by the powers that be. So, automatically assuming that it will make the happiness level rise is not necessarily so. If the government in power attempts to supress that music, it will actually make the overall attitude of the city sour. IMHO, Of Course.

	20-05-1999 17:25									#38
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Double-post

[This message has been edited by zaz (edited May 20, 1999).]

	20-05-1999 19:55									#39
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Response to nr 19 'out-of-order techs'

Perhaps we should place the technological advances on an S-curve with the education level(literacy rate?) on the Y-axis? Most of the pre BC advances would only need a low literacy rate (10-15%) But as advances increase you have to increase your literacy rate, electricity would need a 70% rate nuclear physics 85% or higher...

This would indeed slow down techstealing as a poor backward civilization could steal stealth technology but it would be impossible for them to use it because it requires a high literacy rate (95%> ).

That's all for now...

	20-05-1999 20:08									#40
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Would you want it attached to literacy though? Maybe epoch . . .

	20-05-1999 20:08									#41
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I Really like Zorloc's idea for tech diffusion between civs. (his post 5-19-99 11:51) It would make CivIII a significantly better challenge, and also reflects reality better IMO.

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	21-05-1999 09:59									#42
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Octopus: On technology diffusion, that is exactly the effect I am proposing. With greater diplomatic and economic contact, it should be easier to discover a technology that has already been discovered by the nation with which you have contact. Additionally this system could interface with the proposed boolean or point based prerequisite technology system, thereby allowing a nation to skip some prerequisites. With Bell's Crossbow tech example:

Technology: Crossbow (12points)
Prerequisites: Longbow (6pts), Composite Bow (6pts), Spear (3pts), Sling (3pts), Diplomacy [(Diplomatic Contact Level)*(Turns contact has tech)/5], and Trade [(Annual Gold from trade with contact)*(Turns contact has tech)/30]

All remainders should be dropped.

So if I am the Romans and I have extensive contact with the English. My troops are currently armed with Spears and Slings, but I donot have the Longbow or Composite Bow. The English developed the Crossbow 5 turns ago. I earn 15 gold annually from trade, and we currently have a peace treaty (level 3). So I would have 11 prerequisite points, almost enough to begin researching the tech. Detail:

Spear (3) + Sling (3) + Diplomacy [(3)*(5)/(5) = (3)] + Trade [(15)*(5)/(30) = (2.5) --> (2)] = 11 points

Then the next turn

Spear (3) + Sling (3) + Diplomacy [(3)*(6)/(5) = (3.6) --> (3)] + Trade [(15)*(6)/(30) = (3)] = 12 points

So now I can begin researching this technology.

Of course all of these numbers will change for playtesting.

	20-05-1999 23:31									#43
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I just came up with an idea. For deciding on how to pick new techs, 3 options: Blind, Picked, or Historical. Now, what is Historical? Let me explain. In the early days, technology came almost spontaniously, while after industrialization, specific techs could be researched. So, blind tech up to Industrialization, and then you can pick your techs all the way to the end..

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	21-05-1999 00:46									#44
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Before suggesting some overcomplicated ideas like “Prerequisite points”, or in some less degree “Multiple paths”, “Parallel research”, “Non-deterministic progress” and “Faction dependent research-trees”, please read trough below arguments and then do some rethinking. I am not saying that i am 100% right in all 3 arguments – just read them trough anyway:


1/ In one area the human logic is VASTLY superior to any strategy-game AI, and that is the human ability to, within a blink of an eye, filter out good and worthwhile abstract strategic choices, from the not-so-good ones.
Artificial intelligence often stinks in this respect – it often had to rely on pure number-crunching capability alone, as a poor substitute.
Just look at how long it took for IBM to create a Deep blue program that could finally beat Garry Kasparov (and that in a game with very few and simple rules, on a tiny uncovered 64 square “world”, and with no element of chance involved whatsoever).
When adding abstract tech-ideas like “prerequisite points”, “multiple paths”, “parallel research” and “non-deterministic progress” – it is almost certain that the human player can utilise these choices MUCH more effective then the upcoming Civ-3 AI. By adding these ideas it just gonna make it that much harder for the game-AI to really compete on FAIR and EQUAL terms. Therefore we should perhaps avoid at least some of them.

2/ The Firaxis team have just spent COUNTLESS hours in creating SMAC. I dont think i very realistic to expect them to “re-invent the wheel” by starting entirely from scratch - in every single conceptual detail.
It is more realistic to believe that they probably want to incorporate most of SMAC´S “under the hood” solutions into CIV-3, as much as possible.
What I mean is; “add-on” and “tweaking” type of suggestions are fine, but suggestions that completely rewrites the basic concepts of the research- progress found in CIV-2 and SMAC? No thanks, unless they really, really ADD something really extra to the “100% absorbing game”-factor.

3/ Please, also remember that Firaxis is in the business of trying to make a profit by selling the upcoming CIV-3 game in – if possible – BIG numbers. This means that the cant design a game that are so complicated that only real hardcore Civ-veterans has the patience to learn it.
They HAVE to make the game easy-to-get-into in order to attract newcomers, yet still making it very worthwhile for any demanding hardcore civ-fanatics out there (not easy).

On the other hand: I think NOBODY wants a Civ-3 equivalent of the coward-update Sim City 3000, with only very lightweight feature-additions and some updated fancy graphics. “SIC” – what a disappointing update it was.

	21-05-1999 01:02									#45
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Technology has a tendancy to "leak" across borders, and civil technologies are certain to do this. I think trade between civs should ocaisionally lead to uncontrolled techexchanges.

And emigration of people due to unhappiness or imigration due to happiness should also have a chance of a random tech being given.

I mean, two people trading with each other and living next to each other can´t be too far apart in techology.

what do you think?

	21-05-1999 01:42									#46
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You guys should listen to Ecce Homo. He's full of good ideas.

Problem: Gold has too much of an impact on science. Science improvements should have more of an effect.

Solution: Divide science into categories. Military Academies (early Barracks) would provide a military science bonus along with their quick-repair function. Marketplaces would provide an economic science bonus along with their gold boost. Temples would provide a theological science bonus along with lowering discontent. Libraries, universities and research labs would provide a bonus for everything else.

That way, a rich civilization would end up learning trade very fast, and they'd probably be banking earlier than anyone, but all their gold won't make them discover gunpowder any faster.

	21-05-1999 03:06									#47
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Okay, let's continue refining and combining ideas:

First of all, let's have set technology amounts to research. A Level 1 technology takes 50 points to research, period. A Level 3 technology takes 600 points. Now, there are several modifiers to this. I say this because I hated, in CivI, how it would take 15 turns for my Industrial Revolution society to go back and research Pottery (since in CivI it was a useless dead end). Now, of course, there can be a bunch of percentage bonuses and penalties to this. First and foremost, ones that are based on difficulty level, and that are applied across the board at the beginning of the game (you're playing on Chieftain? Fine, 20% bonus for you and 30% penalty for the computer). Secondly, things like the "basic research" idea mentioned before, i.e. "Discovery of Atomic Physics speeds all physics research by 10%." Furthermore, since the prices of a level of technology are set in stone, if my society which never bothered to learn pottery tried to research it, I'd easily get the 50 measly points (unless the reason why I never researched it was because I had my allocation set to 0% in whatever category pottery is in).

So, I'm seeing a tech tree just like in CivII, except slightly less interdependent. Each tech has a color as well that represents it's field of study. Some possible categories:

Philosophy (a lot of general learning type advancements. Gives you the most government types as well, and the category most heavily dependent on prerequisites that are outside the category, or in other words, the most intertwined category. Setting this to 0% is suicide).

Psychology (includes religion & theology as well as other people-contenters for Octopus's atheists, the arts, and some spy-improving techs)

Mathematics & Physics (starts out with simple war machines and math ideas, leads to astronomy, magnetism, railroads, flight, space travel, and the atom bomb.)

Agriculture & Biology (Pretty much as it says. Starts out with better irrigation techniques, moves on to medicines and even chemical warfare later)

Economics (Starts out with Trade 101 with currency & caravans, and eventually hits industrialization, mass capitalism, and (indirectly) communism.)

There are probably other categories, but it's best to keep it small- 5 categories means easier manipulation of your society's research focus (Not "Do I make applied transportation 6% or 7%?". And if I didn't mention before, these are using my idea of setting research allocations for a category, which determines your research speed for your scientists in each category. No more "Okay, my entire society of philosophers that discovered the Republic now become economics majors and study trade." Also note that there is no "Military science" category- that would make it to easy to pursue a straight military buildup, and with multiple paths to military might like in the previous ideas, that shouldn't be a big problem.

	21-05-1999 04:14									#48
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I like the Idea of being able to turn on a Historical Tech Tree (as long as I can turn it off).

Ralph,
I think the AI can eaisly compete with humans in this "abstract" tech system... just have a file that gives them their sequence of progression... occasionally adding in "RANDOM", so it is not the same for each game... Historical progression for each civ IRL can be used.

Bell,
After reexaming you Preq pt. system (with your helpful description), I must say you have won my vote.

SnowFire,
I agree that diffrent techs should have diffrent difficulties for research, but hopefully if a teck leak system is added, no post-industrial civ would ever be w/o pottery.

	21-05-1999 04:18									#49
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Octopus,

Would you be interested in starting a FUTURE TECHNOLOGY thread? If not, EnochF is interested. Thanks.

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	21-05-1999 05:48									#50
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What about great thinkers and scientists? Consider all the historical personalities that have contributed, individually, to our own progress.

These could pop up randomly, or as rewards - you get a Tesla and your production / power goes up. You get a Pasteur and population / happiness / food goes up. Socrates, your Academies get a bonus, etc., etc.

	21-05-1999 06:30									#51
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This thread should be CLOSED. Please continue in <a href=/forums/Forum28/HTML/000038.html>TECHNOLOGY (v1.2) Hosted by Octopus</a> where I have posted a summary of all suggestions to date.


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	21-05-1999 06:31									#52
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Snowfire: At last a rational mind in this thread. Thank god.

Yeah, I like the idea of having discrete values to the levels of tech - just like city improvements take a certain number of shields to build.

To counter problems with this, I suggest that maybe there be a limit set on the maximum number of points your civilisation can generate per turn - reflecting the fact that putting 100% effort into science results in no more result than 30% - once you have all the good minds and required structures, it still takes time to process the math.

This limit is of course a floating one, increasing according to population, and possibly some city improvements or wonders.


To everyone else: PLEASE! This is a game! The system must be simple and have a large degree of choice (enforced choice - not just 'check all the boxes' stuff) to it - if the player is not in control, it becomes uninteresting no matter how realistic it seems. Keep it FUN.

	21-05-1999 09:43									#53
	Increase Your PM Length

Congratulations, Octopus, on reaching 'lock-down-dome'!

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