03-06-1999 09:33									#31
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Another vote for Gradual Wonder Obsolescence. (check mark)

Russell: About these mini-wonders... would you rather have a mini-wonder system than, say, a World's Greatest system?

Q Cubed: Amazing classification of wonders into categories. Now, I know this isn't what you intended, but I think we could take these "wonder effects" and use them as game flags for genuine customizable wonders...

Also, I would be more comfortable with the concept of "natural wonders" if they were classified merely as "landmarks," as you suggest, and perhaps provided a mild trade bonus.

I'm intrigued by the concept of Wonders being different from National Projects, and I see the distinction, which is an important one. As far as gameplay goes, I would be willing to play a game where "national projects" are wonders, or where the two are in separate categories. Either one is fine with me.

	03-06-1999 02:26									#32
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I've been looking through the wonders of CivII. Most of the non-ancient wonders are very western based.

We have JS Bach's Cathedral, and Michalangelo's Chapel. Why not a famous Mosque, or Synagogue, or other temple?

The race into space starts with the Apollo program? The USSR launched the first satellite, the first animal in space, the first man in space, and had the first space walk. Why not give them a little more credit, and make the Apollo wonder into the first man on the moon, another important feat. Come to think of it, I don't think there is any representation by Communist nations in the wonders list. I remember a never build "Great Hall of the Soviet", which was to be an immense structure (biggest on earth) that could be a cool diplomatic/political wonder.

I'm sure there are other wonders that could be modified to be more international... The Americas are entirely unrepresented, except for the US itself, which is is over represented. I'm sure the Inca's or the Aztecs did something worth commemorating (a pyramid, perhaps?)

	03-06-1999 04:12									#33
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I tend to agree. And while I find Call to Power's "Ramayana" a bit flaky, I would definitely support the Kaaba as a mid-game religious Wonder. As for Russia, I'm rooting for the KGB Wonder, but perhaps that's not quite the representation you were hoping for...

Besides, no matter how well balanced the Wonders may be, there will inevitably be negative reactions. "If the Taj Mahal, why not X?" "If the Kremlin, why not Y?" "What makes the Statue of Liberty more historically influential than Z?" And so forth. Would you be willing to sacrifice the Hanging Gardens in exchange for the Moai Statues of Easter Island?

Anyway, I think the current list of suggestions includes several appropriate international Wonders (as well as quite a few questionable ones.)

	03-06-1999 06:01									#34
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Thank you, Enoch, for your gracious compliment.

I think the following should be listed as flags for customizable wonders:
For Landmarks, World's Greatests. These are what they modify.
[trade]
[happiness]
[science]
[production]
[food]
[energy]
[population]
------
Here are general limitation flags
•must be built between cities across
[channel]
[river]
[mountain]
[hill]

•must be built in cities with access to
[inland seas]
[oceans]

•must be built in cities with
[all city radii squares filled]
------
[No limits on instantaneous transport via Psi Gate or Airport]
[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
[Increases Happiness in Random city of a member nation every 4 years]
[Increases trade from each civ with Television advance; Competition arises if more than one exists, which means those that have a higher luxury rate will have a higher percentage of gold returning from this project from a gold pool created from ((.5×total city trade1)+(.5×total city trade2)+...), with each city in a civ that has the television advance]

[Acts as a barracks/command center in each city]
[Acts as a Granary in each city]
[Increases defense in every city]
[Naval base in each city]
[Acts as a power plant in each city on the same continent]
[Protection of a spy in each city]

[Increases trade]
[Increases Science Output]
[increases production]

[Increases trade in host city]
[Increases host city's happiness]
[Increases Production in Host city]

[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations]
[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations with the Internet Advance]
[Two discoveries immediate; thereafter, 10 free advances per age on average]
[Universal increase in Science Output for all civs with Internet advance]

[Opens embassies in other nations]
[Closes foreign embassies already open (does not prevent new ones from opening)]
[Prevents others from attacking first]
[Increases Voting Power in Earth Council]
[Earns higher regard]

[Eliminates conversion]
[Eliminates Crime/Corruption/Waste/Inefficiency]
[Eliminates maintinence]
[Ends threat of global disaster]

[Eliminates all Nuclear weaponry]
[Allows construction of EcoRangers, destroys top three pollution cities]
[Allows construction of Nuclear weaponry]
[Allows construction of Planet Buster weaponry]

[Increases ship movement]
[Increases attack MORALE]
[Increases Psi attack/defense]
[Increases terraforming rate]

[Reduces war unhappiness]
[Reduces unhappiness/rioting]
[+2 SUPPORT]
[+1 POLICE]
[happiness increased in cities smaller than 5]

[Upgrades free/halved]
[Halves Maintenance]
[Reduces military readiness costs]
[Space improvement costs halved]
[Complete repairs in the field]
[Eliminates overcrowding and pollution unhappiness]
[Research Facilities Increase happiness]
[Research facilities increase trade]
[Can exceed population restrictions]
[Bases start at size 3]
[Permanent Population boom]

[Allows construction of Space improvements]
[Free transportation/orbital insertion]
[Space colony directly overhead]

[Doubles effectiveness of Temples, Cathedrals; Doubles tithes]
[Frees slaves, causes freed slaves in enemy civs to be unhappy]
[Government/Social Engineering Choice switchovers immediate]
[Protects city from disease]
[Radar coverage of the world]

[Victory Wonder]
------
Granted, It's a bit off topic, but...

	04-06-1999 03:20									#35
	Put an end to popups!

No reason why we can't have a combination of both mini-wonders and World's Greatest just to make it more interesting; could be options to switch on or off on the setup screen.

	06-06-1999 09:52									#36
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I suggest that some wonders only work when you have a specific religion:

Christians : King Richard's Crusade, ...
Atheist : Lenin's dream , ...
Boeddhist : Lama Temple, ...
Greek ancient religion: Orakle, ...
Farao cultus : Piramites, ...
Islam : The great Jihad, ...
Zen : The Japanes economic mirakle, ...
UFO : The Seti project, ...

	06-06-1999 00:53									#37
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I favor an off on option for the wonders, or that everybody should be able to build all wonders , even if somebody else has already built it...
Otherwise it gives an unfair advantage to those building it.And the names are for me not so important...Why a "pyramid" shpould give a granary in each city ? I don't see any connection between a Pyramid and a Granary...
But if everybody is able to build a "Great Granary" then it's understandable...
Same with each wonder...The Leonardo workshop should be replaced by a National academy of thechnology , the Colossus by a National Bank etc...
Magellan expedition by Naval Academy
Lighthouse being available to everybody as lighthouse...
Sun Tzu War academy as National War Academy
King Richard Crusade as Superior War academy
Marco Polo embassy as Minister of foreign affairs
Hanging Gardens as National Park
Great Wall as Nationa Institute of military Architecture
Copernicus observatory as Astronomical Institute
Shakespeare Theater as National Theater
Adam Smith Trading company as National Stock Market
Statue of Liberty as Adhesion to Human Rights Organisation
JS Bach Cathedral as National Opera
Michaelangelo Chapel as National Ballets
Darwin,s voyage as Geographical Institute
Women's suffrage can stay the same
Hoover Dam as National Dam
United Nation as adhesion to United Nations
Cure For Cancer as Nationa Medical Institute
Like that all civilisations should be equals depending of their investments...

	06-06-1999 05:57									#38
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Paraclet--the problem with your idea is that it prevents you from making CHOICES, which is the essence of a strategy game.

I don't understand your "unfair advantage" statement. I mean, the "unfair advantage" of the Pyramids is balanced by the "unfair advantages" of the Colossus and Hanging Gardens and....That's the whole point of wonders.

	07-06-1999 01:49									#39
	Put an end to popups!

What do people think of almost-real wonders? Wonders that almost were built in our history, but didn't make it? Should these be included?

	09-06-1999 09:57									#40
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We're in our last week! This is your last chance to list your idea or to take issue with somebody else's!

	09-06-1999 16:29									#41
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You shouldn't be allowed to rush buy wonders. This would create better "wonder races". Also choice to divert production to wonder city - this would simulate that whole nation is in part of wonder production. This would require wonders to be of greater work. Also if Social Engineering is implemented, we need more wonders which improve some Soc. Engineering choices, like Cloning Vats in SMAC, for instance if there is Goverment choice Empire, then Forbidden City could remove negative effects of this choice.

	09-06-1999 16:43									#42
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I was thinking of rushing wonders. Rushing should be allowed, but scaled down. Say, you can only rish a wonder by 10% per turn, so the very fastest you could ever finish a wonder would be in 10 turns (would require a production limit, too).

In SMAC I'd discover a tech, buy the wonder, and have it done in the next turn. That's dull.

	09-06-1999 18:31									#43
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An interesting concept is to allow multiple cities to build one wonder. In Civ2, you can build caravans and then ship them over to the city building the wonder. Why not just let that production go in directly and cut out the middle man? So while the Statue of Liberty is being built in New York, the cities of Dallas, Boston and Atlanta dedicate their production to New York to aid in building the statue. Their production is added to the project automatically each turn. This basically does the same thing as the caravan model but without moving caravans around.

Of course, if the caravan model becomes more automated (like CTP) this time around, the old caravan wonder model would be a whole lot easier to use.

	09-06-1999 19:38									#44
	Put an end to popups!

I dislike the Caravan model of trade, but I've always liked caravans and wonders. Makes it look like it's a real national project.

Does the AI use caravans for wonders? Having jets bombing enemy caravans to delay their project would be rather exciting.

	09-06-1999 19:45									#45
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I don't know this for a fact, but I think AIs do what Eggman suggests 2 posts above. I've often checked with my embassy, and seen the AI building a 400 or 600 shield wonder in a bunch of cities--and finish it quickly.

	09-06-1999 22:48									#46
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Wonders should not become obsolete at the discovery of one tech - instead they could just become irrelevant.

Examples:
The Great Library will only give Ancient or Medieval advances.
The Great Wall will not protect against Gunpowder units.

	09-06-1999 22:59									#47
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That's an interesting point. Just because somebody discovered Metallurgy shouldn't mean that your Great Wall is suddenly vulnerable to the legions and archers of the primitive civilization next door.

	09-06-1999 23:41									#48
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I am not sure that the computer builds wonders like that. Actually, I am pretty sure that the computer builds the wonder in a dozen different places only to keep you from capturing or sabotaging a key city and preventing the wonder from being built. The quick building is a function of cheating, not cooperation.

As an example, I once started a game in 4000BC just so I could test combat percentages (I was creating units on both sides to see who would win and how often). I accidentally set one AI city to build Women's Suffrage and then further accidentally advanced the turn. Well, the size one village (producing one shield a turn) built the wonder THE NEXT TURN. 600 shields in ONE TURN!!! Win if you can, lose if you must but always cheat, I suppose...

	10-06-1999 06:11									#49
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I like Eccles Homo's last idea.

As for paraclet:
i'd rather have the unfair advantage of a wonder and not be able to build it than have many clones of one thing...else, it wouldn't BE a wonder, and there would be no point in building it. As for renaming: I don't like the drab and lifeless names that you gave them. however, i already accounted for the idea of renaming the wonders, so the default name would be there, and when it is built, you could rename it.

	14-06-1999 04:19									#50
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Two ideas:

1) Olympics - Would give a random city in your civilization a trade and happiness boost, every few turns (5-10, probably, for balance). Effects proportional to number of friendly civs. In the later era (after television, maybe?) Effects would not be limited to only builder civ, but might appear in any city of a friendly civ.

2) Unbuilt wonders - Instead of building wonders with shields, why not other methods? Diplomacy has been suggested for the UN. What if the first civ to send a ship clear around the world gets the Magellan's Voyage wonder? Manhatten Project a result of research, not resources? I'm sure other wonders could be adjusted too.. makes for a different kind of a race, a bit of variety.

	14-06-1999 05:58									#51
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I agree that some wonders should be built by other methods than production. It makes sense that you get the benefits of a wonder when you actually DO what the wonder is about, like the Magellan trip.
I also think that it should be a lot harder to switch in mid-production between wonders that are unrelated. It is too easy in civ2 to start building a "cheap" wonder and then switch to a "better" wonder right before it is completed, and get that wonder in 2 turns. After all, I always wondered how my people could be building the Great Pyramids and switch directly to Leonardo's Worshop.

	14-06-1999 14:48									#52
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I have never liked the idea of wonders that are directly linked to people, such as Shakespeare Theatre, Richard's Crusade, Darwin's Voyage etc. What was wonderous were the people and their ideas not the things that were construced in Civ II. With this in mind how about an idea like this that combines some of the best aspects of the Civ II scenarios and Colonization. Instead of people wonders, their might be a Great Leader special unit/s for each civilization that MIGHT appear randomly throughout the game and that would have to effect of either a defensive bonus or offensive bonus while in a stack (like a General), adding movement to a sea stack, or a happiness or scientific bonus for a city (perhaps like plus 5 happiness/sciencemuch like some of the people wonders). These units could not be rebuilt once destroyed and would be specific to the age in which they arrived. Moreover they would last only as long as that Age to represent their life span (Modern, Renaissance etc.) Some of these could be for example, Newton, Magellan, Napoleon, Churchill, Wellington, Richard the III, Gandhi, Lincoln, Hitler, Shakespeare, Nelson, Einstein, Lenin,Mao etc. In some senses this would allow one to get rid of some of the Wonders that are tied to people. An additionally benefit would be that these units could be destroyed and would have to flee if a city was under attack. This would help to make every game special.

I really like the "World's greatest X" idea and the natural wonders idea as well if they could be properly implemented.

	14-06-1999 16:09									#53
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Another non-resource wonder idea.

For the "arts" wonders (Shakespeare's Theatre, JS Bach's Cathedral) how about using Luxuries in the building, somehow? What about trade as a wonder resource?