12-03-2001 10:44									#31
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Species8472 on 03-09-2001 04:19 PM</font>
ok, i was a little confused whether you meant the start players or the current players. ill build a spaceship then.
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No problem, I understand your concern. I should have been more precise.

You are the current permanent Egyptian player for as long as you want to be and don't piss off my Civ (joke)...

	12-03-2001 10:53									#32
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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Epik on 03-11-2001 10:24 AM</font>
I just wanted to confirm that we will NOT be playing the game today...

Also, is it possible to start the game earlier than 4 PM Eastern time for future sessions? It would be nice if we could get another hour or two of play into each session.

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1. I confirm that we are not playing today.

2. My brain starts to fail after 3 hours of Civ, especially in simul play. I'm an old fart, and can't hardly keep up with you young'uns...

	12-03-2001 02:25									#33
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I finally made it back to the forum to read the sad news. I'm sorry War.

AD

	16-03-2001 00:46									#34
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The boss has begged me to work this Sunday. I have to be there at 6 pm EST. I know that it can't be moved earlier because Cavebear will be busy then. AbsurdSensei probably won't be able to sub, anyone have any recommendations for a sub?

	17-03-2001 05:33									#35
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Just wondering whether this game will be continued...

	17-03-2001 08:35									#36
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I understand the requirement, Absurd. Still, *sigh*!

OK, that's off my chest...

Fishing for a sub... (what do I use for bait, a torpedo? Or Italian cold cuts?) LOL!

Absurd, can you email me (cavebear@erols.com) a brief summary of what your civ is doing and what you want a sub to do? I promise not to read it, but will pass it along to the sub...

	18-03-2001 00:40									#37
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Cavebear,

Chaos Warrior has shown interest in playing a sub. Do you already have a sub? or should I try to contact him?

I take we'll continue from 1130AD?

	18-03-2001 09:37									#38
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Yeah, *Sigh* ... And today I had to cover for someone who was sick ... well, I guess its good to have the money.

Now that I'm out of work I'm about to get busy getting drunk for St. patty's day, but I will send the email off for tomorrow.

Sorry about this, but I do have next Sunday off, so I'll be back then, and I will NOT be working under any circusmtances.


AD

	18-03-2001 18:55									#39
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Cap - By all means tell Chaos Warrior he/she can sub. I couldn't find anyone myself! Glad you did!

	19-03-2001 10:23									#40
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k i have a problem too..... icq wont' work it kicked me in a game with four others last night..... i can connect to the net.... but not icq

	19-03-2001 01:23									#41
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War4Ever, do you have an AOL IM account? Mine is Epik7. If you have AOL IM, then send me a message. Prehaps that will work for today.

	19-03-2001 04:34									#42
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OK, the session fell apart. That happens. We will try to regroup with some new players next time. Volunteers are welcome.

	19-03-2001 04:44									#43
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There seems to some discord in the group about this diplogame. That's why I've bumped the original Tales from the front-II-threads for some inspiration what diplogames are about.


For people who can't be bothered to read. A diplogame is about PLAYING the game and not being the first to AC! One important point I would also like to make is that alliances are NOT etched in stone. In the game the two top civs: the Vikings (or Borg ) and Mongols entered into an alliance and have stayed in that alliance. Leaving the rest of the world to fend for themselves. But why should No.2 team with No.1 in diplomatic terms? No.2 doesn't gain anything from this as he's only helping No.1 by not trying to slow him down so that he can beat No.1! In real life this would be like having alliance between Americans and the Russians during the peak of the coldwar, so they can improve their industry without the fear of being attacked.


P.S
It's become clear that simul is not the best option for playing a 7-player diplogame. That's why I've decided, with Cavebear and two other players in agreement, to change this game back to normal turns.

2nd P.S
Please don't post in the 2nd part of the tales-II thread. There's only one post left there.

	19-03-2001 20:38									#44
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Prehaps you can convince me to resume this game, but it has not gone well recently.

I realize that AbsurdDoctor and War4Ever have had good reasons for not being available, but their absence has adversely effected the game.

How many Sunday's will AbsurdDoctor's boss force him to work in the future? How many different subs will replace him, or will we be unable to get a sub? Each sub will have their own style and will effect the game. I think it is important to develop some idea of the players style in a diplo game (are they aggressive or cooperative? are they trustworthy?).

Will War4Ever return to the game? Milo was a sub for War4Ever and the Mongols ended up in Despotism. Jedi was brought in this week and quit almost immediately.

These games go on for a long time... I grow tired of commiting my Sundays to a game that has this many problems. I hate to end my weekends with frustration. Can you convince me that frustration will not be a recurring emotion with this particular game?

I have no desire to play a diplogame with an AI tribe. It is my opinion that the AI is a bad player, and cannot perform the the diplomatic roles. I will not resume the game with an AI.

So do your best... convince me that this game is worth resuming.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Epik (edited March 19, 2001).]</font>

	19-03-2001 21:11									#45
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I am sorry that things fell apart, and that I did not get a message to cavebear to give to my sub about my plans and etc.

As far as my working Sundays, that should not happen again for awhile, this was something of a fluke.

I do hope that you will stay, and that we will be able to continue on this week. When this game has gone right, it has given the most enjoyment I have ever found out of civing since I first started playing the original as a kid. I hope that you have had as much enjoyment as I have.

This week the problems should be over, so lets give it another shot.


On another note, what were the problems with simultaneous? What prompted the switch? I am not complaining, it is fine with me,I am just curious.

Lastly, I would not want to play with an AI either, however if we had no other choice, I suppose that would be better than not playing at all.

AD

	21-03-2001 03:12									#46
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I will keep my promise and retire from this game. This was my last session.

	22-03-2001 08:24									#47
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Just a note to everyone in this game that i played with. My icq not working is really just the tip of the iceburg right now. Other personal issues are what has forced me to fold my cards in this game. Its a great shame for me as i quite thouroughly enjoyed everyones company and i think i gained valuable experience in these sorts of games.

I think mistakes were made in the way the game came about but that could not have been forseen. Its also difficult to ALWAYS be there for the schedualed times for a whole host of reasons

I would like to apologize to everyone for not always being able to give enough notice when personal issues arose. I know how frustrating it can be for others when someone doesnt show up and there is no way you can get a hold of them.

I really hope you guyz can find people to continue what is an interesting game ...... my thoughts go out to the remaining players. I also see how if the game is put on hold, for as long as our was it is much more difficult to continue.

Its a shame that my one time sub caused general displeasure for all ..... not really sure why he had such troubles as i had no problems with my choice of govt.

Once again, i thank all for making the game enjoyable and i apologize for my part in the collapse over the last few weeks but unfortunately for me, this was unwanted and unavoidable

	23-03-2001 05:41									#48
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Well, I guess it would be a good idea to "call the roll" and see who is still interested. And I know we need at least 2 new players (Mongols and Egyptians), so anyone interested, please post.

I am still interested in continuing.

	23-03-2001 06:29									#49
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Sorry, but I think 2 new players is too many at this point.

Just look how quick Jedi dropped out last week... I think you would have better luck starting a new game where the new players can build their own civilization.

	23-03-2001 08:51									#50
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Epik - I understand your concern. Are you still in, or are you out? I intend to try and keep this game alive. It's OK either way, I won't think less of you regardless of your decision.

	24-03-2001 20:15									#51
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Okay I will give it one more try. I will show up this Sunday, and if you have enough for an all human game then I will continue.

I hope that you can find a replacement for War4Ever in advance. Perhaps if that player has a chance to review that tribe's situation in advance, they can figure out a way to pull them out of anarchy.

	25-03-2001 04:38									#52
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Well, I've set the game back to normal turns (at least I hope so). I'll do a quick testrun with the early birds before the start of the session.


On the question why we decided to change back to normal turns, the answer is diplomacy. The problem with multi is that none of the players have time to actually negotiate in the game. Everybody has to rush rush rush to get his moves through. While we've flown through a couple of centuries this way, diplomacy has suffered. I never seemed to get any requests or msgs from other players besides my direct contacts. In fact, apart from some general comments it was eerily silent for the last few sessions. With normal turns I hope we'll get more player interaction.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited March 24, 2001).]</font>

	25-03-2001 11:42									#53
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I would like to continue the game, and will be there tomorrow

	25-03-2001 19:45									#54
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I think we have a full set of players again. I've asked Ecthelion to take over the Egyptians, and I think Markus will take the Mongols.

	26-03-2001 10:57									#55
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Ecthelion tells me he can't play today. I've run out of people to ask. Unless someone else can find a player, I guess it is time to wrap this up.

	29-03-2001 08:12									#56
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Closure:

My thanks to all the people who tried so hard to keep the game going. We simply ran out of a full complement of people able to play consistently at the chosen time. It is difficult under any circumstances to find 7 players who can always play at the same time. Life gets in the way too often.

In trying to get replacements for our several lost civs, I found that the changes they wanted eventually made the original game disappear. The result was that we ended up starting a new game. My apologies for that.

Darn, I sure wish we could have gone just a bit further in this one. It was a diplo game, and my diplomatic efforts had just gotten to the point where I had a few good things *about* to happen.

If other players want to discuss their plans and actions in this game, I will be glad to reveal what I was doing in return. Otherwise, I'll stay quiet (but Machiavelli would have been proud of me).

	30-03-2001 21:02									#57
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I suppose CapTVK is wondering how the heck the Borg beat him to Darwin's Voyage, since at the end of the previous session he was researching Railroad and the Borg were working on Physics.

Cavebear wanted to get the Hoover wonder and supported my efforts to get the Darwin wonder. It required the gifting of several techs and approximately 1000 gold to support my research budget and ( about 750 of that ) for the rush building Darwin.

Sadly, the game ended before he could realize the fruits of his scheming.

	30-03-2001 23:42									#58
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Hehehe, so that explains it!

Cavebear, you were playing both sides, you sly dog!

Actually I was in discussion with Cavebear, to prevent YOU from building Darwin. The benefits of Darwin actually aren't that great (two techs) but it does hamper the player in the lead. More important is getting the DAM, with a space race it's the most important wonder to have. I knew I would never research electronics in time before the Borg would so I decided to let someone else try it. I traded railroad with Cavebear so he could build Darwin and go for electricity and then electronics. Or so I presumed...


That Cavebear would be giving Railroad to the Borg wasn't part of the deal...

	31-03-2001 04:29									#59
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Yeah, I was playing both sides. It's not easy, and it's expensive, too!

I explained to Cap that I couldn't openly ally with his North Atlantic Treaty Organization because the 2 dominant civs at the time I started discussions were both my neighbors and would probably wipe me out without much trouble. Certainly, Epik could have at least given me enough military grief to fatally hamper my progress without damaging his own efforts. That the statement was true makes little difference. Plus, I was able to offer to Cap the possibility that, being the Borg neighbor, I could "take action" at the most useful time.

In turn, I was able to convince Epik that the advantages of my not openly joining the Borg/Horde alliance and seeming to be allied with Cap would pay off in terms of trade route development, tech bonuses, and tech gifts that he would gain indirect benefit from (such as the railroad tech at a crucial time).

From both sides, I had gained an agreement that I would be allowed to get Hoover's when it became available. In spite of having to assist both sides with monetary support (that was the expensive part), it appears that I would have gotten Electronics from Epik and I had just enough to rush-build Hoover's.

Part of my strategy was that neither Epik nor Cap would have it (valuable in itself), and part was that it was really my only way to make up for my weaker civ production and I knew I could not get it on my own. I would have then immediately turned to building factories and might have then been able to catch up. With higher shield production, I could have then turned toward accumulating caravans/freight for more Wonders and additional defense.

So near, yet so far...

It's a shame the game fell apart at that point. It would have been such fun to see if I could get away with my duplicitous diplomacy, and whether it would have been worth all the effort. It would have been interesting, too, to see how long I could keep up the juggling act.

	31-03-2001 04:56									#60
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why on earth would anyone build a factory? The costs far outweigh any benifits... I build them in one or 2 cities that are producing at least 20 shields.